My son is just 6 years old and finishing Kindergarten. He is the third child of 4 closely aged children. His development physically has been excellent and probably excelled. I began a serious phonetic based reading program at home with him last 10/95. He has learned to recognize both upper/lower case letters, sounds with the letters and can read simple words and sentences. He has learned ALOT in the past months but it has been an uphill struggle. I know I shouldn't compare him to my other children, but....he learns at a much slower pace than the rest. Reading does not come easily to him nor does writing. He needs constant repetition where the others picked up on the point after 2-3 repeats. I must say that the older two are above average students in the 3rd and 1st grades.
Am I jumping the gun? Am I looking for problems where there are none? Since my experience with my older two has been above average, am I just confused by my "average" son? It is just a feeling I get about him, possibly a mother's instinct. I have devoted my mornings to him and have worked closely with him and it doesn't seem right to me.. He has trouble sitting still and concetrating and is easily distracted. His trouble is mostly with reading based activites. He has caught on quite well in Math, does quite well socially, enjoys when I read to him, does great in "memory games", and can concentrate on a TV program like a zombie. I have tried and used a variety of teaching techniques, computer games, fun things as well as some "sit down" work and worksheets. I worry about his entering the first grade and having trouble catching on in reading and writing. I have seen from my older kids what is required over short periods of time and I am not confident at all that he will be able to absorb the information in a classroom setting. After all he has trouble absorbing it one on one with me, what will happen when he is one out of 20 kids?. His hearing and sight have been screened by his pediatrician and are normal. Am I overreacting? Could it be a problem? If so what kind of problem, any ideas, suggestions, comments? All would be welcomed and appreciated.
SUBJECT: Re:Dyslexia? LD? ADD? Normal
Date: 96-03-18 19:03:56 EDT
From: PLBARTS
If you are that worried about your son, go to the school and have him
cored(tested) . If they come up with anything then you can do a couple of
things. First follow whatever actions or help they offer or go out side the
school and have him privately tested. What state do you live in ? Alot of
states have groups that can provide names and resources, also let you know
what rights you and your sonhave within your school area. For example in MA
we have a group called The Federation for Children, it has helped my husband
and I learn what we can expect the school by law to for our son who is
dyslexic and ADD. If you are in MA let me know and I will let you know
addresses and numbers, if not ask your school's special needs director if
your state has a parent support group. good luck and don't worry to much
because you seem already on top and aware of what might be going on with your
son. Don't worry everything will work out. PLBARTS
SUBJECT: Re:Dyslexia? LD?
ADD? Normal
Date: 96-03-18 21:18:00 EDT
From: WmDYoung
Yes, we all want our kids to be "normal." But, there is a little something a miss with each one of us. Having something Wrong with a child is scary, but there is help for everyone. Find out if there is anything wrong. Keep searching and testing and talk to others like you're doing here. I have one son diabetic and one high-functioning autistic. The diabetic we could do a simple blood test and we knew. The Autistic took until he was 10 for us to know for sure.
You know your child best. Do the best for them. Michelle
SUBJECT: Re:Dyslexia?
LD? ADD? Normal
Date: 96-03-18 21:18:18 EDT
From: WmDYoung
Special ed is great.
SUBJECT: Re:Dyslexia? LD? ADD? Normal
Date: 96-03-19 01:21:09 EDT
From: Cathq
I think you've gotten some good advice. Talk to his Kindergarten teacher. What are her observations about your son? How does she feel he is doing? Is he keeping up? Having trouble in certain areas? Which ones?
Then, I'd have to say, trust your instinct. If you think there's a problem, ask the school for help, testing, etc. If it is documented that there's a problem, learn all you can about it! If your child needs help, find out what his rights are and yours as a parent. And don't despair! Lots of our kids learn differently. It doesn't mean they can't learn!
I ditto the previous post, "special ed is great" , or can be. First find out IF you need it!
It is also harder when your older two are very bright, or gifted. I know we're not supposed to compare! My older son is gifted, my second son is ADHD/LD. It probably helped me notice the differences----not good or bad, just different! You just need to make sure that each child gets what THEY need!!!
SUBJECT: Re:Dyslexia? LD? ADD? Normal
Date: 96-03-19 09:03:13 EDT
From: Boulevard
Please know that special education services are provided for children who
exhibit moderate to severe delays. It's very difficult to determine those
delays in young children, esp. kdg. & 1st graders, as they aren't expected to
have a huge base of educational experience yet. For a learning disability to
be identified, there must be a significant gap between cognitive ability (IQ)
and academic performance. As my principal is fond of saying about 1st
graders,"If they show up for the test, they're at the 50th percentile." We
talk about lots of young kiddos at our screening meetings; but only a very
few are identified as qualifying for special ed. Most that are identified
these days have medical or behavioral concerns instead. For example, a
little girl with severe diabetes who doesn't process information when her
sugar level is high, which is often. We were able to justify special support
based upon the "Other Health Impaired" label. Some will eventually qualify -
usually in 2nd grade, when their academics are at about your 6 yr old's
level. That doesn't mean you shouldn't talk with the school - find out what
instructional strategies are being used. Is your child in a phonics program,
a sight-word based program, a whole-language/language experience program,
etc... How is your child performing based upon the curriculum? What summer
enrichment programs do they suggest? You are certainly to be commended for
being so involved in your children's education, but I didn't read anything in
your post that sounded alarming. Nancy
SUBJECT: my cousin...
Date: 96-03-19 13:13:48 EDT
From: BritSkye
Hi! My name's Britta, and l'm 17. l have a 22 mo. old cousin, and l'm kinda worried about her....
She is almost two, and says only a few words-like "no" and "bye". Her mother has her on medication literally almost every day. She has had numerous ear infections, and might have to have tubes put in her ears soon. The medicine seems to slow her down...she always has a dazed look on her face...
She is a total TV addict. She watches cortoons videos for hours and hours and hours, and never gets bored of them. One time she was so "out of it" that l flipped the TV to the prevue channel, and she didn't care/notice. She willingly watched the names of tv shows roll across the screen, for close to 10 minutes, when l couldn't stand it and put on the video again. l try to read her books, but there doesn't seem to be any in the house-and when i do find one, she isn't interested.
lt's a tough situation-being only a cousin, there's not a whole lot l can do, much as l wish l could help. My mom and l have been thinking lately that she might have some kind of a hearing problem; there's such a big delay in speech. You can tell her to do something-"blow kisses"-and she won't do it unless asked repeatedly, or better yet, given a visual help like puckering your lips to demonstrate.
At the very least, she's very under stimulated.
Any thoughts or advice??
Britta
SUBJECT: Re:Dyslexia? LD? ADD?
Date: 96-03-20 11:24:55 EDT
From: CalabreseP
We're in NH, not in MA. It sounds like MA is on top of things. I can't really go to his school to have him tested because NH is one of a few states in the union with no public kindergarten for the kids. We go privately and pay, it is like an extension of preschool. And quite honestly I'm a bit afraid of labeling him something he might not be. Like I said it was just a feeling I had about him......I just finished reading a book by S. Englemann, Give Your CHild A Superior Mind and found his feeling to be that when a child begins to read they are very anxious to read quickly, like the parent does, so reversals, assumptions e.g. all words that start with "ha" are hat but in the real world can be have, hard etc. are very common. He also said that their displeasure with reading is common, because learning to read is hard work and kids are not fond of that hard work. But to stick with it and they pass the "hump" and it gets better. Like I initially said, I'm am confused about his situation, a borderline case I would think, and I am looking for information on how to proceed.
SUBJECT: Re:Dyslexia? LD? ADD? Normal
Date: 96-03-20 11:28:03 EDT
From: CalabreseP
Michelle, thanks for your kind words of support. Yes I do feel I know him best but I have the fear if I start to show him how worried I am about him, with tests etc. he might himself begin to feel that there really is a problem with him. He is quick in most other aspects except reading.
SUBJECT: Re:Dyslexia? LD? ADD?
Date: 96-03-20 11:34:14 EDT
From: CalabreseP
Cathq-
Yes that is what I want, to find out and do what is best for him. My husband is quite supportive and shares some of my concerns. It is true we are all different and frequently comparisons lead to trouble, but with 4 kids so close in age you can't help but fall in the trap and the kids themselves are all too often comparing themselves to one other and you know kids, they can be cruel even to siblings. They are quick to judge and call names etc. I have tried to keep on top of that issue, because I knew my third wouldn't be academically superior and even tried to keep their report cards a private issue i.e. between that child and us the parents but they are anxious to compare against one another. How do you deal with those kinds of issues with your kids? I am anxious to know your plan.
SUBJECT: Re:Dyslexia? LD? ADD?
Date: 96-03-20 11:45:24 EDT
From: CalabreseP
Nancy-
Thank you for your professional assesment. Are you a special ed. teacher? I do understand the need to those with moderate to severe deays to receive the services they should. What can I do if anything to make sure that he doesn't become one of those with moderate to severe delays. Ifanything, now it would be just a borderline case, but as with a borderline you can easily go both ways. He is in a private Kindergarten because NH does not offer public so his schooling is more social than academic. I have been trying to deal with the academics this past 6 months before his entrance into the 1st grade. Perhaps you are right and I am alarmed without reason. I just love my kids to pieces and would do anything to get them what they need. I am a firm believer in the value of a good education starting from pre-K and early intervention is important to succeed. The earlier you find a problem, perhaps the smaller you allow it to grow and the greater the chance of "fixing" it.
He is a sensitive and really good child and when he enteres grade one I am
afraid of the labels, especially from other children, you know how cruel they
can be "dummmy" "stupid" etc. can become self fulfilling prophecies. He is
definitely not used to such talk around my home and when they get on that
school bus they are on their own
SUBJECT: Re:my cousin...
Date: 96-03-20 11:52:14 EDT
From: CalabreseP
Britta- how wonderful you are so concerned for your cousin. My advice is not professional, just motherly. How is your cousins mom related to you, your mom's sister or dad's? Have you tried to talk to her about it? Has your mom tried to talk to her about it? ...... and it sounds as though this liitle girl could use a friend like you. Are you able to spend more time with her? Do you have all the facts? Is she medicated for a reason? Does she have a long standing illness etc. You brought up many issues in you post, each of which could take pages to answer. Do you live close by? You're on the right track, first by being aware there might be a problem, expressing your concern and seeking a grownup's, you're mom's help and advice. Sounds like the two of you will help out. Don't give up.
SUBJECT: Re:Dyslexia? LD? ADD?
Date: 96-03-21 15:45:47 EDT
From: Boulevard
You asked if I'm a spec. ed teacher-I'm a speech/language pathologist, and yes, I guess that makes me a spec. ed. teacher in some ways. I would encourage you to talk to your child's teacher, and ask what the Basic Skills inventory for kdg. is in your district. I would bet that the teacher tells you that many kindergarteners do not read words or sentences yet, as your child does. I think early stimulation is important, and it certainly sounds as though your child has had good experiences, has been immersed in literacy activities, etc.. But, I also believe in child development theories that say you may not be successful in teaching a child something before they are neurologically, emotionally, cognitively, socially, physically ready for it. I'm all for the exposure, mind you, but I don't get overly concerned when it doesn't "take" right off. I don't think you need to be concerned that your child is a "dummy," as children are usually extraordinarily kind at this age.
My son, age 8, with Down Syndrome, has lots of 1st grade pals, and they don't
seem to be concerned about what he can (or can't do). Nancy
SUBJECT: My first
grader can't read!!
Date: 96-03-23 22:16:51 EDT
From: Mick4Rush
David is having a lot of trouble with letter reversals (e.g. p / d)...
Could this be a symptom of dyslexia?
SUBJECT: Re:My first grader can't read!
Date: 96-03-24 15:03:03 EDT
From: SusanS29
"David is having a lot of trouble with letter reversals (e.g. p / d)...
Could this be a symptom of dyslexia?"
Mick, before second grade reversals are avery common. However, a "lot" of trouble isn't.
However, it isn't a symptom of "dyslexia," or reading problems. It may be a perceptual problem, especially when if he does it when no writing is involved.
Reading problems are not caused by perceptual difficulties, however. This is a widely-held myth. Reading is a language skill. If the child either has a language delay or some other difficulty that affects language (such as auditory-perceptual difficulties, sequencing difficulties or Attention Deficit Disorder) he may develop a reading problem. Likewise if the child has difficulty with immediate, short-term or long-term memory reading will be a problem.
The first question is "Does this child have a reading problem?" If the answer is "yes," then the next step is to find out why before attempting to remediate it.
SUBJECT: Re:my cousin...
Date: 96-03-25 18:27:17 EDT
From: Caz46
Britta,
There may be much more to this situation than I know of, but her lack of speech and disinterest in listening to stories appears to be symptomatic of hearing loss. I hope that a hearing evaluation is completed as part of the post-surgery for the tubes. Good luck.
SUBJECT: Correct placement?
Date: 96-03-25 21:32:06 EDT
From: METAL DECK
My son is 8 1/2 and in third grade. He has mild CP, a mild-moderate hearing loss and attention difficulties (borderline ADD). He has been in a self-contained spec. ed class since the beginning of second grade. He is mainstreamed for music, health and art and spends about 45 min. per day in the regular classroom. Recently he achieved solidly average scores in intelligence and speech and language testing. His educational evaluation showed his skills to be below grade level which I expected because his special ed class is still doing second grade work. I feel he can do a lot more than what he is doing in school and that the recent testing backs this up. Though I don't think he could currently keep up with the regular ed class I'm not sure he belongs in his secial ed class either. Any comments, suggestions etc... would be graetly appreciated. Feel free to e-mail. Thanks!
Cathy
SUBJECT: Re:Correct placement?
Date: 96-03-26 20:14:35 EDT
From: MissBart
Cathy, how has previous testing look? Is this a major change? If so, you
may want to question the tests. You can get more mainstreaming if you think
this will help. Request an IEP addendum and decrease the % spent in self
contained. I like my kids to be the"tops" of their groups, so they are not
always struggling and they feel successful. Keep in touch, MissBart
SUBJECT: Re:Re:Dyslexia?LD?ADD?Normal
Date: 96-03-27 14:55:03 EDT
From: KevisB
I'm sorry that I have to disagree with Nancy. You can certainly find out about whether there is a problem before it causes the child to fall behind. If you use only achievement tests to detect learning disabilities, then of course in first grade you won't find much. However, had our son had a WPPSI in kindergarten instead of at the end of first grade, we could have save a whole year of frustration. He loved school in kinder, hated it in 1st grade. Proper testing uncovered the reason, but it took 2 years to make him feel OK about school again. If there isn't a problem, it won't hurt to test, but if there is, you may prevent a lot of emotional problems. I felt something was different about my son since before kindergarten; the kindergarten teacher also did but could not put her finger on it. Testing did. Most children seem to actually enjoy testing when it is done by on an individual basis. Good luck!
SUBJECT: Re:Re:Dyslexia?LD?ADD?Normal
Date: 96-03-27 16:03:49 EDT
From: Socadream
I'm surprised none of you has been informed about "Early intervention".
Hasn't anyone heard of "Seek and Serve?" Maybe it's just here in CA. Anyway, any child from birth to school age can go to their nearest public school and (in WRITING) request a screening or testing to determine if a problem exists. (Be sure to state why you think there may be a problem.) If one is found the child could get speech and language services, specialized pre-school and other services at their local school or be referred to a regional center that serves children from birth. Where-ever you are, the local school or District Dept. of Special Ed can give you the info. (my own daughter started speech services at the age of three-she didn't talk much and when she did she could not be understood or stuttered. In addition she was also found to have a learning disability in Auditory Processing). Most parents have a gut feeling when something about their child is "different". Go with this feeling and investigate. Don't be afraid to face it and insist on finding out about services available. You will be greatly rewarded because early intervention could prevent more serious problems later on. Good luck!!
SUBJECT: Re:Re:Dyslexia?LD?ADD?Normal
Date: 96-03-27 19:04:40 EDT
From: Boulevard
KevisB, my comments about testing kdg. and first graders were with regard to
how the federal and state guidelines read - a learning disability must be
documented. That doesn't mean there aren't kids out there who have delays -
but the delays must be significant in order for special education services to
be provided. I do feel the emphasis should be on helping those kids who we
call "crack" kids - they "fall between the cracks," as they don't qualify by
state definitions as learning disabled, mentally retarded, etc.... The
problem is that there isn't funding/legislation to help those kids who are
just slightly delayed. That is considered the realm of regular education,
where modifications should be made to meet the needs of the child.... Special
education has to justify removal from the LRE (least restrictive
environment), by proving that there is no other way to meet their needs. I
talk almost daily with other special educators who feel that regular
classroom teachers need a whole lot more support and assistance in
modification. The problem is, of course, $. No money for training, no money
for materials, etc...... -Nancy
SUBJECT: Re:Re:Dyslexia?LD?ADD?Normal
Date: 96-03-27 19:22:02 EDT
From: SusanS29
"I'm sorry that I have to disagree with Nancy. You can certainly find out about whether there is a problem before it causes the child to fall behind."
Kevis the liklihood of a problem can be spotted ahead of time, but until the student has fallen behind academically the child won't be eligible for special help.
I know that sounds crazy, but I happen to have a high school daughter who has a learning disability, but who has learned to compensate enough that she is no longer eligible for special education.
She's still learning disabled, but not eligible for services.
SUBJECT: Re:Dyslexia? LD? ADD? Normal
Date: 96-03-27 21:35:46 EDT
From: Pearlm
Hi!
I understand exactly how you feel, however, my problem was that I KNEW there was "something" wrong with my child and all the experts said was that he was responding to my "poor parenting techniques." I did not follow my instincts immediately and push to have him tested, even though my med insurance would cover it, because I was dealing with many other problems at the time and thought that since the pediatrician and the pre-school teachers were professionals they knew better than I.
When we moved to Ohio from Conn. I finally had to have him tested to get him in to special ed. since he could NOT cope in a regular classroom. When he was 6 he was finally diagnosed as having Pervasive Developmental Disorder, a very mild form of autism (he was nonverbal and "entertained" everyone with loud, self-abusive temper tantrums. He would sit for hours watching TV and never move, but if the TV wasn't on he couldn't cope with just about any stimulation. I was not keen on getting him labled as someone with Severe Behavior Disorder ("SBH") in Ohio, but I have to tell you that he's almost 9 now and with the correct treatment and meds he is now extremely verbal, reading, writing and at least intellectually can deal with other kids.
Do not be afraid of labeling your son. If you are concerned, be extremely persistent with the school board. They must test even before you son enters school if you so request it. There is a wonderful book called "The Guide To The Special Education Maze" which was most helpful to me in finding out what the Federal government mandates for special ed testing and services.
Go For It.
SUBJECT: Re:Dyslexia? LD? ADD? Normal?
Date: 96-03-28 19:46:33 EDT
From: WMMugridge
From having worked with hundreds of children at the elementary level it appears that your son if quite typical. Learning is not a linear process but as far as his rate to date he is probably right on target. It is always difficult to be the second or younger child in families. Parents never overtly compare but comparison is inevitable. A consistent but soft approach would probably be best. He may soon get the idea you are very worried about his academic progress. If that happens learning could become anxiety ridden and a test of wills between parent and son. Being zoned out with TV is unfortuantely the norm also. Learning of ads, music is a matter of catchy repetition. Limited access to high action shows is usually the best policy. Seek advice from your school teacher, learning specialist or school psychologist if your son hits a learning roadblock.
-WMMugridge@aol.com
SUBJECT: Re:Dyslexia?ADD?LD?Normal?
Date: 96-03-28 22:12:32 EDT
From: KevisB
Re: comments of Nancy and SusanS29, I think it depends on the district's
definition of "eligible for services." I have been told that if I lived 1/2 mile away in Oakland, CA, my son would have to be 2 years behind to be eligible for services; however, once the testing was interpreted correctly in my district, I was told that he is eligible for services as long as his learning disabilities keep him achieving at a level significantly below his intellectual level. I now know about early intervention programs, but did not at the time I became concerned about my son. Even if someone turns out to be not "eligible for services" I strongly feel that at least the assessment should be done so that appropriate modifications can be made in the classroom until the student learns enough compensating mechanisms not to need modifications. I fully expect my son to outgrow his need for resource specialist program, but in the meantime, I'm glad he has it. I have been gradually learning about our rights under the ADA and only wish I had known more when my son was 4. That is why I take the time to write-because I don't want other children to have to suffer the pain of enduring the pain of being called "stupid" "lazy" and other such in the first grade, when so much is demanded of them.
Best regards,
Kevis
SUBJECT: Re:Dyslexia?ADD?LD?Normal?
Date: 96-03-28 22:47:22 EDT
From: SusanS29
"I think it depends on the district's definition of "eligible for services." I have been told that if I lived 1/2 mile away in Oakland, CA, my son would have to be 2 years behind to be eligible for services; however, once the testing was interpreted correctly in my district, I was told that he is eligible for services as long as his learning disabilities keep him achieving at a level significantly below his intellectual level."
One of these districts is defying state guidelines; I don't have any way of knowing which one it is of course but federal guidelines require state determination of what the "drawing" line is for LD-not district by district.
Of course, if a child is close to the state cutoff, it becomes a judgment call, and one district might call it one way while another would call it differently. But to get federal special education the state has to establish what they will consider LD. The only state I know of that doesn't take this federal money is New Hampshire (and they might have been just considering it, I'm not sure.)
SUBJECT: Re:Dyslexia?ADD?LD?Normal?
Date: 96-03-29 15:21:31 EDT
From: KevisB
Yes, I think that Oakland is probably out of compliance. They have a lot of problems in addition to special ed, as you may have noticed in the papers. However, our health care provider is in Oakland and used to dealing with the Oakland schools, so that is where we got our initial (mis)information. I am no expert on the ADA as we never expected to have a child having problems in school-he always seemed so bright.
Anyway,in the guidelines I have for assessment, the law requires a severe discrepancy between ability and achievement in certain specified areas, not between grade level and achievement. At the time my child was assessed, he was not below grade level in his area of disability. Now in third grade, he actually is below grade level in his disability area, but is working diligently to catch up and find ways to compensate. Since he has classroom modifications, he can continue to learn and progress at above grade level in those areas that he does not have a disability. He feels much better about school now that his main barriers to learning have been removed. He does receive a small amount of resource specialist time, but classroom modifications have also made a tremendous difference in his ability to perform at almost no cost to the district.
We also spend our own funds to provide him with 45minutes/week of sensory integration therapy. The assessments done by the district are an invaluable aid to us in determining how we can further assist him to be successful in school. I think that all the teachers he has had so far have been very encouraging and desirous of information that would help them in teaching him. His first grade teacher was a terrific advocate for us in getting some help, as she could see that he was not coping well in first grade. It just seemed initially so difficult to understand the whole process, and that is why I am so grateful to have this forum for learning.
I truly believe that if the mother believes there may be a real problem, it is better to find out sooner than later, so that appropriate measures can be taken before the child is suffering school failure. My belief is not an expert one, being based only on our experiences.
Best regards,
Kevis
SUBJECT: Re:Dyslexia?ADD?LD?Normal?
Date: 96-03-29 16:35:16 EDT
From: SusanS29
"I truly believe that if the mother believes there may be a real problem, it is better to find out sooner than later, so that appropriate measures can be taken before the child is suffering school failure. My belief is not an expert one, being based only on our experiences."
Kevis, I absolutely agree with you! I really get annoyed when I hear a parent has been called "over-protective." It's extremely rare for a parent to have pathological over-interest in her child. Far more common, the mother senses something, and people should listen to her!
SUBJECT: RE: Correct
placement?
Date: 96-04-07 21:26:00 EDT
From: METAL DECK
Miss Bart:
Thanks for your response. It has been a crazy few weeks - meetings at school, reviewing testing etc...
I plan on having my son tutored over the summer to get caught up and
hopefully get him placed in reg. ed in the fall. It seems that his major
problem is weak word attack skills which brought his reading and writing
scores down. I am looking for a phonics program I can start at home to
address this issue. Any suggestions? Thanks, Cathy
SUBJECT: Re:RE: Correct
placement?
Date: 96-04-09 22:27:46 EDT
From: KUC49
Cathy, Write Great Leaps Reading, Box 138, Micanopy, Florida, 32667. The
program is just out, is simple to use, and gets results. It is also
inexpensive ($45). Work daily with your child, you'll both win. good
luck
SUBJECT: Re:RE: Correct placement?
Date: 96-04-09 22:55:50 EDT
From: NANJETTE
MY SON HAS BEEN TO FOUR SCHOOLS IN FOUR YEARS. HE HAS DEFIED DIAGNOSIS. HE IS SITTING ON THE FENCE AND SO WE HAVE TRIED TO SUPPORT HIM IN THE MAINSTREAM, BY PLACING HIM IN PRIVATER SCHOOLS AND THAT HAVE VERY SMALL CLASSED, AND SUPPLYING THE EXTRAS. WE HAVE HAD NOTHING BUT DISAPPOINTMENT WITH TEACHERS. RECENTLY WE HAD OUR SON COMPREHENSIVELY TESTED BECAUSE HIS CURRENT TEACHER CLAIMED THAT HE WAS NOTPERFORMING AT THE SECOND GRADE LEVEL IN ANY SUBJECT. SHE WAS CORRECT--- HIS ABILITIES LIE CLOSER TO THE FOURTH AND FIFTH GRADE LEVEL. WE HAVE YET TO FIND A TEACHER WHO SEES HIS GIFTS AS AN OPPORTUNITY RATHER THAN A BURDEN, AND WHO IS WILLING TO LEARN THE TECHNIQUES AND MODIFY HIS CURRICULUM SO THAT HE CAN REMAIN IN WHAT WE BELIEVE TO BE THE LEAST RESTRICTIVE ENVIRONMENT, A SMALL CLASS WITH BEHAVIORALLY TYPICAL CLASSMATES. OUR SCHOOL DISTRICT IS IN THE DARK AGES, BELEIVING STRONGLY IN THE BENEFITS OF SELF CONTAINED CLASSROOMS AND RITALIN. WE ARE BETWEEN A ROCK AND A HARD PLACE TRYING TO PLACE OUR SON. IT IS EXASPERATING FOR ALL OF US. ANYONE OUT THERE HAVE A CHILD WHO HAS DISABILITIES BUT IS ALSO GIFTED?
SUBJECT: Repeat K or spec ed?
Date: 96-04-10 23:41:00 EDT
From: Looeye
My son entered kindergarten in Sept at 5 yrs 8 mo., deemed "ready" by the school's screening process. He has a history of chronic ear infections and varying degrees of moderate hearing loss.
We are still working on medical resolution of the ear problem. He is also very small-- 5th percentile.
Now I find that the teacher recommends repeating kindergarten, because he has not been successful in reading and writing skills, he does not always stay with the group, and is sometimes socially inappropriate, all of which she attributes to lack of maturity The principal says that they do not generally test kids at this age. I see that that he is going by the NAEYC and other guidelines there, but I feel that the hearing problems in this case indicate a reason to do further testing. I read that kids with muffled hearing tend to develop language learning disability.
I am really feeling a lot of resistance at the school-the principal says I should trust the teacher's judgement. He seems to have categorized me as a disappointed parent worried about the stigma of her child being held back a year. I think Mom knows best, and I am finding literature that supports me. Any input would be appreciated.
Thanks from Matt's Mom
SUBJECT: Repeat K or Spec. Ed
Date: 96-04-11 17:16:29 EDT
From: Pburris1
I too have a son who was 5 yr and 8mo at the beginning of the school yr. The teachers had been basically saying the same things to me about social behavior and readiness skills. My son started OT last summer because I was aware that he needed help with a fine motor and visual discrimination problem. He will continue this but we have also decided to do kinder again but moving him from his small private school to our local public school which is a very good one. This way he can receive OT there as well as some other support services that I feel he can benefit from. It was a struggle coming to this decision...we looked at many schools and feel like this is the best choice for our son. Feel free to e-mail me at Pburris1 if you want to chat about this some more. Good Luck!
SUBJECT: Re:Re:Dyslexia?LD?ADD?Normal
Date: 96-04-12 21:17:44 EDT
From: NancyAnn4
Kevis B
What is WPPSI??
Thanks
SUBJECT: Re:Repeat K or spec ed?
Date: 96-04-12 21:33:34 EDT
From: METAL DECK
I also have a son with a hearing loss. Does your son wear an aid? He is
currently in third grade and in special ed and I am very dissapointed in the
program. I had suggested they keep him back last year because he was
basically 1 year behind but the school would not do it. So they put him in a
spec. ed class doing mostly second grade work and a lot of hand holding. It
is definitely not too early to have your son tested. Contact any childrens
hospital in your area and ask if they have a developmental clinic that does
testing. Does your school have Pre-1, this may be an alternative to
retention. Based on my experience I would choose retention over special ed
unless the child exhibits extreme learning disabilities which can be teased
out through testing. But keep in mind a hearing loss is not in itself a
learning disability and there are ways to ensure he does not miss learning
because of the hearing loss. My son's major weakness in learning now is in
phonics, so he may have missed a lot due to the hearing loss. Phonics is a
major building block on which learning is based so you want to be sure his
needs are being met in this area. Feel free to e-mail me if you want to hear
more! Cathy
SUBJECT: Re:Repeat K or spec ed?
Date: 96-04-13 22:11:53 EDT
From: Rayna
Research on school retention shows no documented benefits in having a child repeat a grade, even kindergarten. The child may show satisfactory performance in the grade being repeated, but later performance in school is not different for children retained or not retained with the same profiles. If a child has missed a significant amount of school in a given grade or has moved into a new district with a different curriculum then retention may be beneficial. Basically, if a child is having difficulty in grade level work, there is a reason. Having a speech and language evaluation may indicate if there are receptive or expressive language delays interfering with your child's progress. Also, reading and writing skills are not necessarily developed in kindergarten. Even a retention in kindergarten can be a stigma for a child. The National Association of School Psychologists has a policy statement against the practice of retention.
Rayna
PS The WPPSI stands for the Wechsler Preschool and Primary Scales of Intelligence-a test of cognitive abilities ("IQ test") for children 3-6.
SUBJECT: Special Education Advocacy
Date: 96-04-13 22:16:32 EDT
From: Lucie Ruth
SPAN the Special Needs Advocacy Network can provide a list of 60 individuals who are in private practice as special education advocates. A special education advocate can help you find an evaluator who can determine if your child has special needs. Three of our advocates are from N.H., the others are from MA. Call 617-928-0002 x3 for the listing. In MA many of the Associations for retarded citizens do sped advocacy for all disabilties.
Look in the front of your telephone book for the number of your closest
ARC
SUBJECT: Re:Dyslexia?LD?ADD?Normal?
Date: 96-04-15 14:20:37 EDT
From: KevisB
The WPPSI-R is the Weschler Preschool and Primary Intelligence Scales, which is a test for younger kids than the WISC-III.
SUBJECT: Mislabeling of Black and
His
Date: 96-04-19 11:50:46 EDT
From: Sweetlump
I am intrested in information regarding the large number of Afician American and Hispantic students in special education. Are some of the students being mislabled?
SUBJECT: Perceptual-Motor Development
Date: 96-04-20 18:27:56 EDT
From: Nonsea
What can be done for the few students who do not qualify for special education based on standardized test scores in the areas of intelligence, achievement, or behavior, but show great weaknessses in perceptual-motor development. What resources are available to teachers in this area? Any response may be helpful.
SUBJECT: Re:Dyslexia? LD? ADD? Normal
Date: 96-04-23 20:41:39 EDT
From: TLS5617
It is very difficult to evaluate one child's performance to another sibling who's intellectual abilities may very well be different. A child his age will exhibit some difficulties with attention and distractibility....this may be attributed to his developmental stage. It is great that you are aware of his progression in learning and you should make these concerns known to your school personnel. If your school system has a School Psychologist I would recommend you talk with this person, as well as your son's classroom teacher. Evaluate all your options and familiarize yourself with your rights as a parent.
SUBJECT: Re:Dyslexia? LD? ADD?
Date: 96-04-24 23:40:02 EDT
From: MissAlino
I agree with the person that recommended you speak to his teacher. That is the person that can tell you how your son is functioning in relationship to the other students...It sounded to me as though your son is pretty far along in his reading skills already. considering the age he is at. I'm a special education teacher, and I think your efforts demonstrate a caring parent...I wish I saw more like you each day!
SUBJECT: Re:Dyslexia? LD? ADD? Normal
Date: 96-04-29 20:38:48 EDT
From: MSirois114
As a first grade teacher, I commend your efforts. If your son is struggling one on one with you, imagine what his experiences will be in school with about 20-25 other children. All of your support will help him. When he enters first grade you ought to find out about the Reading Recovery program. Reading Recovery offers a one on one learning setting for children at risk. I have been thoroughly impressed with Reading Recovery results with my first graders. Also, your child sounds like he would benefit from a strong phonics program. Good Luck!
SUBJECT: Re:Perceptual-Motor Developm
Date: 96-05-04 14:10:24 EDT
From: Amos McD
Perhaps an independent evaluation by a neurologist with an official diagnosis of perceptual-motor problems would help the child qualify as health impaired. My son has this same problem, along with other delays due to prematurity and qualifies for special ed. as health impaired, because his other delays aren't bad enough any more to qualify him for special ed. It might be worth a try.
SUBJECT: Re:Repeat K or spec ed?
Date: 96-05-04 14:36:49 EDT
From: Amos McD
My son was held back an extra year in a special ed. preschool due to fine motor delays, attention & impulsivity problems, and small size. He was born prematurely. He started Kindergarten at age 6 years 8 months, and did very well, although he did have an educational assistant to help him with writing and attention. He fit right in with the class. He is very small for his age (less than 5th %tile). Now he is finishing second grade. He was diagnosed with an ADD-like condition(basically neurologically impaired due to prematurity) after months of independent testing along with school testing. ( He had done so well in K that they took away the EA for 1st grade and he crashed.) His handwriting is just as good as most of his class now. His other subjects are at grade level, but he is reading and comprehending at 5th grade level.
As his parents, my husband and I have had to make very difficult decisions about the stigma of being held back. Already the kids are wondering why he is 8 and they are all 7. His small size (he's the size of a 6 year old) makes it hard for him to keep up physically with the other kids on the playground, and he gets teased about it. But I picture him in 2nd grade instead of 1st and he would have failed miserably, both in the classroom and socially. I know that later, the age difference will cause him to be teased, but I am hoping that his ability to keep up in the classroom with the other kids, and be such a good reader will keep his confidence up. The school special ed. team said that at this age, kids get alot of confidence from their physical abilities, so it is best to put them in a class where they can keep up physically. In my son's case that was impossible, because his physical delays were too great, but he doesn't stand out like he would if he were in 2nd grade.
So what am I saying? That we would hold him back again if we had to do it all over again. Each child is so unique, I don't think studies carry much weight. I would follow your own gut feelings, but listen to the school as well. They have alot of experience with how kids do over the years. I believe they really do want what is best for your child, but they are tied back with budget concerns, rules, & regulations.
Anyway, just a thought.
Amy
SUBJECT: Re:Repeat K or spec ed?
Date: 96-05-04 18:51:54 EDT
From: AP80
Amy, I wouldn't worry about holding your son back. It's much more common now and carries much less stigma than in the past. I teach middle school and I would say that roughly 35% of all the kids are a year older than is typical, due reasons such as holding kids back who have late birthdays, holding kids back to give them an athletic advantage (believe it or not!), and just not being ready academically, socially, or developmentally. And I'm not just talking about kids who are classified sp. ed. My own son has a late birthday and had some reading difficulties (not bad enough to get him classified) and struggled all through school. Finally, in 9th grade after failing 2 subjects and barely passing the others, we made a joint decision (our son, my husband, and I) to repeat the whole grade. He did and did much better. He says he has never regretted it. I only wish I had known enough to do it in kindergarten.
SUBJECT: Re:Repeat K or spec ed?
Date: 96-05-08 00:28:34 EDT
From: Amos McD
Sorry-I should have said my son is now finishing 1st grade, not 2nd!
Amy
SUBJECT: Re:Dyslexia? LD? ADD?
Date: 96-05-08 08:03:39 EDT
From: FishToys
I think it's important to know what is going on. A label can be looked at different ways - the most important getting you what you need for your child. Don't be afraid of the "label" be afraid of what can happen by glossing over your concerns and not getting the appropriate help. I've been there, felt that, and moved on to greater success. E-mail me at Fishtoys.
SUBJECT: 2 year old cousin
Date: 96-05-10 22:16:30 EDT
From: BritSkye
hello! my name is britta, and i'm 17. i could really use some advice, and would appreciate any and all replies!!! i'm really worried and confused about my cousin shannon. she turns 2 on may 27. i don't spend a lot of time with her, but just the short times i've been with her have been enough to tell me there's something un-typical about her. (i refuse to say "wrong".) first of all, she's constantly on medication. almost every single day. she sneezes, she gets baby tylenol. this is like a vicious circle, because so much medicine makes her immune system weak, but when you're sick, you need the medicine to fight off the sickness. she has had a LOT of ear infections throughout her life, and may have to have tubes put in her ears. when she was younger, she was very understimulated and was plunked down in front of the tv for hours on end. she doesn't have any books and doesn't get read to. (the books my family and i give as presents mysteriously disappear). but most of all, something about her hearing is strange. she came over to our house with her mom, and stayed for about an hour. they just left a few minutes ago. the time shannon was here was, to my mother and i, "testing time." i had been so eager to see her again to see how she was doing!! the first thing my mom did was to wait till she had her back turned then clap really loud. shannon turned towards the noise. as we walked, holding her hands, mom exclaimed excitedly, "shannon, i looove your slippers! shannon, where are your slippers?!" but shannon gave no indication she even heard. downstairs, shannon saw my kitty by the door and went over to pat it. i said, "shannon, that's the kitty! where's the kitty?" but she didn't even look at me. the cat started to meow, and shannon said "mow, mow". oh-another thing. she babbles unintelligbly a lot, and can say "hi" and "bye" i think, but no real words. funny, cuz the last time i was here she would point and squeal "keety!!" but this time she wouldn't say even that. in the living room, she was playing with the piano keys, and mom and i were knocking ourselves out going "shannon! shannon, look! shannon, c'mere a minute!" loudly, but she gave no indication of hearing us. then mom suddenly said "PSSST!" and shannon turned around and laughed and laughed! and most interesting of all... i was crouched down next to shannon in the kitchen while she fiddled with the knick knacks on our shelf. she was facing the wall. mom came up and, bringing her hands within six inches of shannon's head, clapped extremely loud and fast repeatedly. shannon didn't even flinch. she turned at about clap number 6. then, mom took a cover to a pot, and bringing it up high, let it drop with a CLANG onto the linoleum. shannon jumped a little, and turned to look at it. i was half expecting her to be scared of such a loud noise like most 2 year olds, but she just giggled. so, it's safe to say she's NOT deaf, but her hearing is not typical, either. it's almost like she has...selective hearing or something. about one fourth of the time she'd respond, but most of the time she didn't. she seemed to respond to a lot of sounds, but not words. sometimes she'd turn around to hear her name, other times she wouldn't. at one point i said "shannon, come here!" and had to say it a lot, because she wasn't coming over. her mother casually said "oh, is she ignoring you? she does that to me all the time." hmmm. but when i motioned with my arms, 'come here', she did. i noticed that her mother uses a lot of gestures-like puckering her lips for "give me a kiss" or patting her head for "fix your hat". i am totally fascinated with autism and even wondered if shannon had some form of autism or other PDD... then again, i see autistic signs in everyone because i think about it so much... nonetheless, i was looking for "autistic symptoms". shannon didn't seem to care who she was with; she'd wander around the house with whoever was available. [2 b continued]
SUBJECT: part 2
Date: 96-05-10 22:17:05 EDT
From: BritSkye
then again, she could just be a non-shy kid. she did a lot of hand-leading..ie, pulling my hand over to an object she wanted, or using my hand to push a button. she seemed to resist physical contact-i mean, she'd pull my hand when she needed something or have me lift her up to places she wanted to go-but she's squirm out of my reach when possible. then again, she could have just been too busy exploring to have time for that. she doesn't look people in the eye very much. i put my head right next to hers, and she would barely glance at me. sometimes saying "shannon" would warrant a quick glance. although she didn't like to just plain be held, she loves to be bounced and tickled, like a lot of autistic kids. but on the OTHER hand.... she doesn't self stim. she does respond some to words, she does babble, if not coherently, she did play "appropriately" with toys...you know, putting the bottle to the doll's mouth... she was curious, active, and exloring...smiling and laughing...
there's just something odd about the whole thing. do you have any suggestions or ideas? i really want to help her if i can.
i'm sorry this was so long; thanx for listening!!
Britta
SUBJECT: Reply to Looeye
Date: 96-05-11 01:56:39 EDT
From: SLWags
Dear Matt's Mom,
I faced your problem last year when my daughter was in kindergarten. I made the choice of pushing her ahead. I did have her tested but the testing was inconclusive. She really wasn't ready for first grade. I hoped she would be ready. The testing was helpful though because she went into resource room this year without much red tape. She is now classified as learning disabled which means I do not have to face leaving her back again. But to tell you the truth, if I could have had the extra year in kindergarten, I would have jumped on it. This year has been very tough for all of us, especially her. She has to face a lot of pressure from her teacher, tutor, special education teacher, her peers and me. It's a struggle every day. I must say I'm not all that unhappy with her progression, but it is so slow. She is about six months behind the other children but I hope one day she will catch up. I felt that my daughter couldn't be left behind last year because she is the oldest of the class (she turned 7 in December). She is also tall and socially mature. Please think about your decision carefully. I know you want your son to succeed and another year in kindergarten might really do the trick. My friend left her son back in kindergarten and he is doing great in first grade. I really envy her. Talk to other mothers who have children in first grade. They push so much on these kids and to have a child who is behind to begin with, it's like fighting a losing battle. Good luck to you. My best wishes. Feel free to e-mail me if you would like to talk.
SLWags
SUBJECT: Re: Repeat K or Spec Ed
Date: 96-05-11 02:05:30 EDT
From: SLWags
See reply to Looeye. Sorry I didn't enter subject correctly.
SUBJECT: 2 yr old
cousin
Date: 96-05-13 12:23:47 EDT
From: Kary8825
Lots of information provided. Sounds like you know about autism and PDD, and that those characteristics are even in normal people to some lesser degree. First of all, she should have her hearing checked. Call the local Board of Education for referral to the early intervention, infants & toddlers, child find (whatever it's name) program. They can do full evaluation- speech, language, cognition, motor..... and help with all kinds of things. Fed. law calls for provision of Individual Family Service Plan for kids under 3 with significant enough delays or potential problems, including testing, treatment, and referral to other sources of help.
You mentioned environmental deprivation - is the mom depressed or just "busy" with everything else? Who watches the child if the parents are at work? Ear infections or fluid can affect how well she is hearing - so she should react to loud sounds, but could have trouble making out specific sounds and words (like plugging up your ears) and this would affect her ability to respond to your directions or learn to talk.
Standard earphone hearing test w/ pushing a button when you hear it is not done w/ kids. They have other ways, and can even test newborns. Poor eye contact - shyness or more? Some kids are very easily overstimulated and don't like to be touched or withdraw from people they don't know well. As you know, you can also see this avoidance in PDD or autism, but that often looks "emptier" and the other interpersonal aspects are affected. What does she play with and how does she play? Will she look at books, do puzzles that are at her age level or close to it, (when exposed to it and shown how), does she play with a ball, stuffed animal, pretend, imitate, react to interaction games (even peek a boo gets a good reaction at a much younger age), get on riding toys, or just wander around aimlessly, using people as objects to get what she wants? You said that she pretended w/ the bottle & baby, and does smile and interact - those are promising signs.
Some kids just have a speech and language delay, which can be related to hearing problems - and it doesn't have to be deafness (life long, severe hearing loss),but can be temporary, mild hearing loss due to infections/fluid. This could affect how well she understands as well as uses language. Some speech delays just happen, kids have poor oral-motor control - not due to ear infections, mom, or anything else.
I'd make the call to find out about services in the area, and figure out how to approach the mom - "I heard about a program that can help kids who need to catch up...../ or ..have speech problems.../or... are behind because of ear problems......." Taxes at work - services are at no charge.
SUBJECT: If In
Doubt, Check it Out...
Date: 96-05-18 07:36:44 EDT
From: Huhjrj
I am new to this area and am thrilled to be able to connect with other Special Ed parents. My oldest son (who is now 13 1/2) has been in early intervention/special ed since he was two years old. From the moment he was born, I sensed something wasn't quite wrong, but something wasn't quite right about him. He was EXTREMLY slow to roll-over, sit up, etc. and did not walk until he was almost 2 1/2). Every skill he should have had was VERY delayed. The entire time, I kept telling my pediatrician (sp??), husband and family that something was wrong-they told me I was a crazy, nervous new mother. To make a long and depressing story short, I finally put my foot down and had him evaluatated (at age 2) at an early intervention program that worked through my school district. Everything I felt was wrong WAS wrong and more.
Mother knows best, go with your instincts and don't be afraid-you are not
alone. It's been a very tough 13 1/2 years, but also very rewarding. I take
nothing for granted and everything my son does (as well as my two other sons
who have no disabilities) is a wonderful gift to be thankful for. It is your
responsibility to get the best help and education available for your
child-there are laws protecting children and parents of children with
special needs. Big a Big Mouth and Make Waves-school districts do
everything they can to appease noisy moms. If I can be of any help to any of
you in any way, please feel free to E-Mail me. Regards-Cate
SUBJECT: Re:Repeat
K or spec ed?
Date: 96-05-18 09:21:34 EDT
From: Ratatat
<<I am really feeling a lot of resistance at the school-the principal says I should trust the teacher's judgement. He seems to have categorized me as a disappointed parent worried about the stigma of her child being held back a year. I think Mom knows best, and I am finding literature that supports me.
Any input would be appreciated.>>
Mom does know best. Pursue what you feel needs to be done. The only person your child has who will advocate for your child's very unique and specific needs is you.
Retention is not going to improve your child's hearing, or languange skills. Some extra support while he remains within his peer group probably will - and then he will not be faced with being held back - a stigma most kids will carry with them through out their educational career.
When administrators and teachers tell me that "most" children are not tested at this age, or some such about "most" children blah, blah, blah... My come back is always, "Well, this is not most children. This is my child."
SUBJECT: NCIP's Website Wins Award!
Date: 96-05-20 14:24:09 EDT
From: NCIPWeb
The National Center to Improve Practice (NCIP) invites you browse our WWW site and share your knowledge and expertise with a community of educators who have a similar interest in technology and students with disabilities on NCIPnet.
Selected as Pick o' the Month by the U.S. Department of Education, NCIP's website is unique among educational sites, in that it integrates valuable resources with lively discussion forums, facilitated by experts in the field.
We invite you to peruse our resources and log onto NCIPnet, the telecommunications network of NCIP (it's free!) Participate in one or all of the eight facilitated discussions forums. Currently there is conversation surrounding Fat Cursors, a control panel developed by Robert Abatola in our Assistive Technology folder, a discussion surrounding inclusion in our Inclusion Folder, and "talk" about issues of AAC and real-time communication in the Augmentative and Alternative Conversation folder.
To learn more about NCIP, point your browser to: http://www.edc.org/FSC/NCIP/
NCIP, funded by the U.S. Department of Education, Office of Special Education Programs, seeks to promote the effective use of technology to enhance educational outcomes for students with sensory, cognitive, physical, and social/emotional disabilities (preschool to grade 12).
NCIP's site contains facilitated discussion folders, a vast library of resources, video products illustrating how students with disabilities use a range of assistive and instructional technologies to improve their learning, and more than 100 links to other websites dealing with technology and/or students with disabilities. Questions, please contact NCIP at: ncip@edc.org.
SUBJECT: opp/defiant disorder
Date: 96-05-23 12:20:48 EDT
From: Louise42
does anyone have any info on oppositional defiant disorders in children or
adults, especially under age of 10? Also I am interested in learning more
about conduct disorders especially in those ages 9-25. Symptoms, etc. Thanks
JLW
SUBJECT: Re:Correct placement?
Date: 96-05-24 14:28:58 EDT
From: CMMFG
If you don't mainstream your son now, get ready for the ride of your life. My husband and I have just recently been informed of his step-childrens (from a previous marriage) progress and experience with the Special Ed. program in the California school district. The children were apparently "identified" as learning disabled in 2nd grade (during the midst of a divorce) and have been shuttled through the SE program every year since. You make a very important point that your son's Special Ed 3rd grade class is still doing 2nd grade work. Our children are now getting ready to go into 8th and 9th grade. According to the most recent testing done (which I am skeptical about), our oldest girl entering high school is reading on a 5th grade level. Her reading comprehension is on a 3rd grade level. Her math skills are on a 5th/6th grade level. This school year the children were forced to transfer districts due to a move. She held a 3.0 gpa for the 1st three qtrs - the 4th qtr was @ the time of transfer. We just received her progress report and were concerned to see that she had F's and D's in every subject. I called her teachers to find out what was going on - the kids were turning in all their assignments and were attentive in class, however were not doing well on quizes/tests. So what does that tell me? They don't understand the work they are doing, the teachers are giving them their D or F and moving on to the next page, the next chapter, whatever. I was furious with the public school system. I then spoke with a teacher who informed me that they were special ed students. We were not made aware of this until this week (their mother never advised us, and during all the school functions that my husband attended this was never addressed). Wham. We were prepared to get the kids a tutor and send them to summer school knowing that they were behind, but this week's reality check shows us how extremely behind they are. Cari was mainstreamed into 8th grade math with a 5th grade math ability. No teacher has ever suggested that the kids would benefit by a tutor. No teacher has ever suggested summer school. They've just been passing them through with A's and B's (I assume because the girls always did their homework and were pleasant in class). They never took the time to teach the kids - they didn't even take the time to indicate that the kids weren't learning at an acceptable level. To be frank, I'm not even certain that the girls are learning disabled - they were "identified" at a crisis time in their life, and they probably would have benefited more by extra attention or smaller classes. These are my husband's ex-stepchildren. I don't have any authority in their lives other than the fact that I love them and consider them part of the family. My 10 year old daughter also went through a divorce during the 2nd grade. She's now in the 5th grade and is not working up to potential. I'm certain that if the right "expert" got their hands on her they could classify her learning disabled. My husband and I have taken responsibilty for her education by enrolling her in a private traditional school with very small classes and will fund her education. My deepest concerns about the public school system were confirmed just last night when I spoke with the oldest girl's counselor. She told me that even if Cari doesn't get a 1.5 to graduate, she will still go in to high school. "We never hold kids back," she said. Well, as far as I'm concerned that explains it. Cari is basically operating on a 5th/6th grade level because no one ever indicated that she wasn't learning. They gave her her A's and B's and passed her on. Cari has goals of going to college. At this point, the SAT alone is going to floor her. As far as I'm concerned the California (well, Cajon Valley) school district robbed these two girls of their right to learn and their right to an education. In closing, my advise to anyone with a child is to do whatever is necessary to ensure their child is learning.
SUBJECT: Re:Correct placement?
Date: 96-05-24 17:24:24 EDT
From: Boulevard
...regarding the previous posting from the stepmom w/the 2 identified
students: As far as taking standardized tests (such as group cognitive
abilities tests, achievement tests, etc...), special ed. students are
entitled to modifications if they have to take these at all(at least in my
state). For example, my son w/Down Syndrome's IEP will read "exempt from
group standardized testing," and an LD child that I work with's IEP reads
"Lindsay will have group testing read orally to her," because she has trouble
with those silly "bubble sheets." I know this addresses only one of your
concerns, but I thought it was something you should be aware of. You also
might check with your district's spec. ed. dept. about putting you in contact
with other parents - we have a parents advisory council that meets regularly
with the administration. Good luck - you've got energy (from anger) on your
side! -Nancy
SUBJECT: Re:Dyslexia? LD? ADD? Normal
Date: 96-05-24 17:31:43 EDT
From: ALV
if these are serious concerns, then I would have him evaluated if for nothing else your piece of mind. Through these evaluations you will discover his learning stly, stengths and weaknesses and be able to better help and prepare himfor school. As an SLD teacher for 16 years it has been my experience that the earlier a child with learning disabilities is diagnosed the better for him or her. They will not loose any self-esteem . I had a similar experience with my own child and went ahead and had him evaluated. I feel much better knowing his strengths and weaknesses.
SUBJECT: Re:my cousin...
Date: 96-05-24 17:35:10 EDT
From: ALV
Britta, I feel that your mom and you are doing the best you can. Keep reading to her and finding interesting ways to stimulate her. I definitely would have her hearing checked. The pediatrician can do it or the local health center or the shriners. Some of these options are free.
ALV
SUBJECT: Re:My first grader can't rea
Date: 96-05-24 17:38:12 EDT
From: ALV
Normally, many first graders still make reversals. I would not worry unless
its the end of second grade and he is still producing reversals in letters or
words. I am an SLD teacher for 16 years and have seen many children who are
in the mainstream make reversals that are in first grade .ALV
SUBJECT: Re:Dyslexia? LD? ADD? Normal
Date: 96-05-29 19:48:44 EDT
From: MLJEF
to britta, Your cousin should probably go to aN ENT SPECIALIST FOR A HEARING TEST. HOWEVER, DEVELOPMENT OF LANGUAGE VARIES WITH INDIVIDUALS. I AM IN EDUCATION AND ALSO A GRANDMOTHER OF 6. MOST OF MY GRANDKIDS ARE IN SCHOOL NOW AND DOING WELL BUT SOME OF THEM DID NOT TALK MUCH UNTIL AGE 3. KEEP TALKING TO YOUR COUSIN. READ TO HER AND GET HER TAPES WITH BOOKS. MOST LIBRARIES PROVIDE THESE. GOOD LUCK. YOU ARE A GREAT COUSIN. IF YOU HAPPEN TO BE IN FLORIDA CONTACT FDLRS THROUGH YOUR LOCAL SPECIAL EDUCATION DEPT.
SUBJECT: Re:Dyslexia? LD? ADD?
Date: 96-05-29 19:52:52 EDT
From: MLJEF
TO CALABRESEP,
THERE IS A GREAT VIDEO TITLED, FAT CAT. IT DEALS WITH MANY OF THE CONCERNS YOU HAVE EXPRESSED REGARDING LD. ANOTHER GOOD VIDEO ON ADD IS 1-2-3 take 5.
SUBJECT: Re:My first grader can't rea
Date: 96-05-29 20:00:55 EDT
From: MLJEF
HOW OLD IS HE? IT COULD BE DEVELOPMENTAL. MANY STUDENTS WITHOUT THE ID OF DSYLEXIIA MAKE THESE REVERSAL INTO THE SECOND GRADE. THE READING IS ANOTHER MATTER IMMERSE HIM IN A PRINT RICH ENVIRONMENT. THE REASON I ASK ABOUT HIS AGE IS YOU NEED TO KNOW IF HE IS A YOUNG FIRST GRADER OR ONE OF THE OLDER IN THE CLASS. THIS MAKES A BIG DIFFERENCE. THERE IS PLENTY OF GOOD SOFTWARE YOU CAN USE TO ENRICH HIS SCHOOLING. ASK HIS TEACHER TO HELP. IF SHE FEELS THAT HE IS NOT DOING WELL THINK ABOUT A TUTOR.
SUBJECT: Re:Correct placement?
Date: 96-05-29 20:05:34 EDT
From: MLJEF
CATHY, YOU SAY HIS IQ IS IN THE AVERAGE RANGE . BEFORE MAINSTREAMING TOTALLY MAKE SURE THAT LD IS RULED OUT. SOMEONE WILL LOOK AT HIS ABILITY VERSES HIS ACHIEVEMENT AND SEE IF THERE COULD BE A PROBLEM. IF NOT LD AND HE IS NOT LARGE FOR HIS AGE YOU MIGHT WANT TO TRY MAINSTREAMING FULL TIME IN ONE GRADE LEVEL BELOW HIS CHRONOLOGICAL AGE PLACEMENT.
SUBJECT: Re:Re:Dyslexia?LD?ADD?Normal
Date: 96-05-29 20:07:24 EDT
From: MLJEF
RIGHT ON.
SUBJECT: I want him tested first...
Date: 96-05-29 22:39:15 EDT
From: Yidnme
I was recently informed that my son is going to repeat first grade.IAlthough I am sure the teachers believe this would benefit him...he was never tested by the reading spec., or had a speech or auditory workup done.I asked that we reserve judgement until he is tested and we know the results...I was told there is a waiting list and they would not hold a spot-they think he is not ready to be promoted.I had him tested privetely- he is 6 months behind in reading...but third grade in math skills.I am ready to scream...this is a private school...as a single parent I struggle to give my children the chance ata decent start in life that I didn't have.Any suggestions...are they any "rules" for holding a child back...I'd appreciate any thoughts I am too emotional to think clearly.Now you know politics begins in first grade.
SUBJECT: Yidnme
Date: 96-05-30 00:43:43 EDT
From: Pal14
I don't know where you live. In NY the schools can't force you to accept any particular action for your child (unless there is a danger to the child or others). Find out what your rights are and go with your gut feeling. Your local public school special ed commission may be the best place for you to start. I'd also contact your School Districts SEPTA (Special Ed.
PTA) they will help
you know your rights and the rights of your child. Good luck. PAL14
SUBJECT: Re:Dyslexia? LD? ADD? Normal
Date: 96-05-30 18:25:18 EDT
From: SusanS29
Thank you for your post, but please do not post in all-caps.
Thanks.
SusanS29, Host
SUBJECT: Re:RE: Correct placement?
Date: 96-06-03 23:04:22 EDT
From: Jim Worby
We have two of these kids. Both have learning disabilities but IQs above 135. They are smart enough to know when the teacher's are doing a poor job but not smart enough to know how to teach themselves. One is 20 and in college full time and working full time. The other is 17 and quit high school after many schools and situations. He will learn everything the hard way. Good luck, the schools dont help with this one.
Jim Worby
SUBJECT: Re:I want him tested first..
Date: 96-06-04 20:57:43 EDT
From: SRagghiant
Not all children learn to read in first grade. Not all chilren learn to read well in second grade. Not all children who are not reading by the end of first grade are special education kids or necessarily children with a reading problem or disability. Also, how old is your child in comparison to his classmates? I would be interested in his other skills-socially particularly. What are his strenghs? How does he learn-visually or auditorially?
SUBJECT: Re:I want him tested first..
Date: 96-06-05 15:55:11 EDT
From: SusanS29
"Not all children learn to read in first grade. Not all chilren learn to read well in second grade. Not all children who are not reading by the end of first grade are special education kids or necessarily children with a reading problem or disability."
This is true. In Finland and Switzerland they don't teach reading until age eight, and have very few reading problems. I would love to have the luxury sometime of seeing just how they use the students' time productively until then.
That's why we want them to read early, of course-it makes teaching them easier. But maybe it's a little like trying to force a bike to take you somewhere when one of the tires is flat... you might get there but is it worth the effort?
SUBJECT: Re:Repeat K or spec ed?
Date: 96-06-05 21:49:00 EDT
From: DickASUNYA
Having read these various messages I must respond as a parent of kid (now a
college junior) that the school wanted to retain, classify and medicate. We
fought all such attempts and battled to keep the school focused on teaching
him (and we worked hard also). He was active, couldn't write or spell and
didnt become a reader until 8th grade (although he could read by the end of
3rd). He wasn't like any of the other four kids but he grew up and is now a
competent (if still impulsive) young man. I worry that we allow schools to
label, sort, segregate, and medicate when some kids jsut don't fit their
plans. I worry that too many kids with development like my son become
teenage illiterates unable to deal with the world without some drug. Kids
who are not independent and who are largely unemployable. Look at the
outcomes for special ed. Look at the dropout and illiteracy rates among LD
kids. For me, those data speak foir themselves (no other group of kids has
such dismal outcomes). Protect your child, fight the sysytem, and, above all
else, don't believe the damn tests. Dick Allington
SUBJECT: Re:Repeat K or spec
ed?
Date: 96-06-08 11:21:09 EDT
From: SusanS29
"I worry that too many kids with development like my son become teenage illiterates unable to deal with the world without some drug."
In fairness, although it apparently wasn't needed in your case, medication can be a powerful tool to help a student succeed if the student has ADD/ADHD.
The studies are pretty clear that when these students get help (which often does include medication), they have better outcomes than when they don't:
more graduate from high school
more go on to college or trade school
more stay out of serious trouble with the law
more have successful relationships as adults
more hold jobs successfully
more avoid serious entanglements with alcohol or substance abuse
BUT the studies also clearly show that the best single indicator for succes is...
SUPPORTIVE PARENTS... which your child clearly had.
So... pat yourself on the back. :)
SUBJECT: LD? ADD? I'm still confused
Date: 96-06-09 13:04:28 EDT
From: CalabreseP
Well it's June now and my son has officially graduated from Kindergarten. He's proud and excited to be going on to the 1st grade. I however am more apprehensive than ever. I have read all of your responses from my first posting and am very grateful to all who took the time to respond. The tangents that this subject took were also quite fascinating. BUT.......a little bit has changed. I had him tested by an opthomologist and we found him slightly farsighted (common at this age) but also his eyes slightly focus off center, that is they go out, not noticibly to the naked eye though. The doctor says he must use more eye muscle power to bring his eyes together to focus on reading and hence coupled with the farsightedness his eyes tire quickly and he complains of headaches and doesn't want to read. We are currently excercising his eyes to improve muscle power in them and the DR. says this is not a situation that requires glasses either. So now I know that he has SOME trouble with his eyes but do not know if that is what is causing his disinterest with reading!!!!! It seems as though this eye problem can last indefinitly and if you can't read wel l and don't enjoy it, you're in trouble. All subjects are based on reading!!! I do plan on making his 1st grade teacher aware of this issue and plan on being on top of her the entire early part of the year. ( I was appalled to find some parents of current 1st graders telling me that teachers approached them as early as January saying it looked as though their child would be retained) It seemed awfully early to make such a decision to me. Anyway back to my son, I thought hard about not letting him go on to the first grade but he definitely is past the Kindergarten program. Kindergarten's in NH, I feel do not adequately prepare kids for the rigors , yes rigors, of the 1st grade. They are privately run, not funded by the state, and just extend the nursery program another year. All of those songs and games and numbers from 1-10 don't prepare them for "drop the e and add ing, fractions, writing, addition/subtraction facts 18 and under, time, money not to mention the length of day etc. Another year in "K" would be a waste. I thought to home school this year but wouldn't know how or where to begin and with me he just won't listen. You know kids are always angels when they go to visit someone elses house and when they come home it's like a different kid. He doesn't have that "teacher type" of respect for me and have resigned myself to letting him try the 1st. My husband says I see the glass "as half empty" instead of "half full". Maybe I do. What happens to a child if he does well in other subjects, but falters at those sight concentrated, e.g. reading, writing?. His math is still good and he does grasp the concepts well. I have worked on time with him and he caught on quite well too. There again, no major sight concentration required like reading. He seems to be able to think in the abstract well. If these excersizes don't improve his eyes, reading will always be difficult. What do I do then? I don't want to fall into the trap of doing his homework for him. I am willing to tutor him as much as it takes but is that right also? When does the extra help become a hinderance? Should he not earn his own grades be they A's C's or D's? No parent wants to see their child fail, at anything, but how will I know if it's necessary? To tell you the truth, I'm scared. I want to do the right thing. Help.....
SUBJECT: Re: Correct placement?
Date: 96-06-09 18:52:25 EDT
From: METAL DECK
MLJEF, I came to the same conclusion - retention - but the school is against
it. Based on the school's testing he may have a written language disability,
but is not LD in math and reading. But they have had him in special ed for
all subjects and believe this should continue. He was taken out of regular ed
at the beginning of 2cd grade and placed in a self-contained class because he
was not keeping up. That is all I was told and went along with it because
"they" were the experts. I have learned a lot since then. His math and
reading skills are currently at a begining third grade level. So even if he
does have a written language disability I feel that he could benefit from
retention and it may be his best chance at full mainstreaming. You sound like
you may be a teacher so let me ask you are there regular ed students who
enter 4th grade with reading and math skills at the beginning 3rd grade
level? If I do send him to 4th grade it will be in regular ed, does he have a
chance? Thanks, Cathy
SUBJECT: Re:my cousin...
Date: 96-06-09 22:17:51 EDT
From: Killerbear
Sorry, this message is so delayed I see you posted it in March. I am a speech pathologist. I highly recommend that you get your little cousin in for a complete audiological examination(hearing testing) by an audiologist certified by the American Speech-Language-Hearing Association. Hearing loss can lead to significant speech development delays as you have already observed. As a follow-up to the hearing evaluation, your cousin can be referred to the local school for a speech evaluation. There are excellent early intervention programs to help children overcome their speech problems.
If your local school district is not helpful, call the American
Speech-Language-Hearing Association for a referral to a clinic in your area
(301)897-0039. or call me at (714)639-4990x211 Linda
SUBJECT: Re:my cousin...
Date: 96-06-09 23:39:26 EDT
From: GradSooz
Dear Britta:
I think that your cousin is very lucky to have you. It sounds like in addition to having some health problems she may be culturally deprived. Go to the library and find some books that might interest your cousin. Help her to have as many experiences with language as possible. It could be that ear infections are slowing her speech/language development. An audiologist would have to test her hearing acuity to see if there is a hearing problem. Have your cousin draw pictures with you when you go over and encourage her to use her language as captions for those pictures. Example: She might draw a picture of "bye" or "no". It would be fun for both of you, and a change from TV. Picture books with very few words on the page would be of high interest to her/him. You could embellish the story using pictures clues to help you.
SUBJECT: Re:Correct placement?
Date: 96-06-09 23:45:07 EDT
From: GradSooz
Dear Cathy:
At the next IEP meeting (or before) you can request that your son be placed in a general ed class for one academic subject (what is his strength? How is his mobility? Does he like science? Ask him!) Remember your parent's rights to have an amendment added to your child's IEP. If you want to make a change-go for it! Take it easy. Change one thing at a time. As teachers we do not satisfy all parents. Even though we try to administer to all of the needs of our students, sometimes things we can do have been overlooked by us or the special ed team (of which you are a part.) Good luck. I hope this bit of conservative advice will be helpful.
GradSooz
SUBJECT: Re:LD? ADD? I'm still confused
Date: 96-06-10 00:04:31 EDT
From: GradSooz
Wow! How nice to hear about a concerned parent. A parent who is willing to invest time in the child of which they have charge. I do not believe that you can do too much to help your child if all you do is help. Make certain that you are not the one doing the work for him. You want to know, and the teacher needs to know, what he can do. Also, your child's self concept will be improved when he can do it on his own. You can work on building sight vocabulary with your child. You can help your child by letting him dictate stories to you and reread his own stories (don't forget to let him illustrate them and make a book.) He can reread those stories many times.
SUBJECT: Re:My first grader can't rea
Date: 96-06-10 20:34:30 EDT
From: Kate225506
How old is David?
SUBJECT: ADHD/preschoolers
Date: 96-06-10 21:59:39 EDT
From: SUE ANN504
I am looking for information on preschool-age children who have deen
diagnosised with ADHD. I am the mother of a 3 1/2 year old who has not been
officially diagnosised as ADHD but has been suggested by his language
therapist that this is probably what we are looking at. My son has language
delays which may possibly be related to his lack of attention and an ability
to focus on any one activity for any length of time. He has difficulty in
processing language to be able to inturn understand and speak back a correct
sentence. He is very bright and does have a large vocabulary, but just does
not know how to process it all together. I live in a rural community, and
there is only one private preschool. The teacher for this preschool has had
my son in her class before when I would help for various class activities for
my older son who will be 6. This preschool teacher did not feel she was
capable of handling a child like my son. She suggested that I send him to
the elementary school's developmental preschool program where he would get
the help that he needs. I'm not sure I am ready to send my son off to
preschool for 4 mornings a week. Would I be better off to keep him home and
work with him so that he would have some special one on one time with me
while my other son is in Kindergarten or should I assume that he really
needs this special help already. 3 1/2 seems so young to be labeling. I just
feel like I could use some good advice on this subject. My son does have
severe allergies. Is there any information out there that correlates
allergies to ADHD? I am a devoted and caring mother who wants to do the best
for her children. I would appreciate any advice. Sue Ann504
SUBJECT:
Re: Dyslexia? LD? ADD? Normal
Date: 96-06-12 18:17:58 EDT
From: SunbJanet
I understand your questions and the fact that things are worrying you. I would encourage you not to worry too much at this point. He sounds very capable and is able to learn. I would continue to work with him in different areas and keep your eye on him with learning skills, behavior, etc. If he gets into first grade and ends up needing to repeat so he has solid basic skills, that's okay. Better now than when he is 12! You may need to relax with this one, though, mom, and don't be afraid of his differences from your other two children. Remember, he is his own person and you want to encourage him in his own rights.
SUBJECT: Re:LD? ADD? I'm still confused
Date: 96-06-12 23:22:59 EDT
From: SusanS29
"( I was appalled to find some parents of current 1st graders telling me that teachers approached them as early as January saying it looked as though their child would be retained)"
Generally teachers do try to bring up the subject for the first time about that point in the school year.
I would go back to the doctor and ask him just how much a problem this is for him.
SUBJECT: Re:LD? ADD? I'm still confus
Date: 96-06-14 11:25:38 EDT
From: CalabreseP
Susan-The Dr. says he cannot tell whether or not his eye trouble causes the problem with reading or he justs has a problem with reading. If he just has a problem with reading the problem with the eye will just add to his reading difficulties.
And re: the January notification, I would agree in dramatic cases this would be clearly evident, but what about the others (my friends daughter was not dramatically behind)? They just met the teacher in September, how can she properly evaluate a class of 25, group them appropriately, teach them etc. and know by the January marking period your child may be retained? That leaves a 2/3 of the year to go with a teacher having decided about a child. I don't mean to generalize about all teachers, not at all, pehaps there was more to her case then I am aware of.
SUBJECT: Re:LD? ADD? I'm still confus
Date: 96-06-15 19:22:47 EDT
From: SusanS29
"Susan-The Dr. says he cannot tell whether or not his eye trouble causes the problem with reading or he justs has a problem with reading. If he just has a problem with reading the problem with the eye will just add to his reading difficulties."
Get a good reading evaluation on him-if you have a local university with a reading clinic, that would be a good place to start.
They can space their testing out over several days, provide rest periods, etc., so the muscle thing is of minimal interference.
Only by combining the expertise of multiple disciplines will you be able to find out what's going on.
"And re: the January notification, I would agree in dramatic cases this would be clearly evident, but what about the others (my friends daughter was not dramatically behind)? They just met the teacher in September, how can she properly evaluate a class of 25, group them appropriately, teach them etc. and know by the January marking period your child may be retained?"
Very often they can.
No matter what the first grade teacher does, she'll be criticized by someone. One of the things that makes this grade level so hard is that it's often the first grade teacher who first brings news to the parents that there may be a problem of some kind. The parents are rarely ready to hear it.
That said, I'm opposed to retention. It solves nothing. At the same time it masquerades as a caring solution, so nothing effective is done. It does a tremendous amount of psychological damage to an already-vulnerable child. Gently done? Point out the child's difficulties, and advertise to the entire school just how severe they are, and do it publicly-and do it gently?
Not possible.
Visist the Special Education library for research information about the long-term consequences of retention.
"That leaves a 2/3 of the year to go with a teacher having decided about a child. "
In fairness, no... January marks the 1/2 point.
SUBJECT: Re:Dyslexia? LD? ADD?
Normal
Date: 96-06-15 22:02:10 EDT
From: AKADOSH
Reading is related to development. As a school psychologist, if a child is just finishing kindergarten and already knows his letters and their sounds, I would have no concerns. I would not even consider testing a child for any special educational services a child at six years of age with those skills! Relax, everyone learns at a different pace.
SUBJECT: Re:Dyslexia? LD? ADD?
Normal
Date: 96-06-16 09:20:57 EDT
From: Ratatat
<<Relax, everyone learns at a different pace.>>
No truer words were ever said. How I wish the homogenized classrooms of so many schools could flex just enough to allow children to learn like children, and without penalty for being developmentally normal, e.g., learning all over the place within one classroom.
I am always surprised at this time of year at the renewed discussions and questions that appear on the boards about retention. There is very, very clear evidence that not only does in not "fix" the reasons why the child might be having problems, but the evidence also shows that in the long run it actually causes harm.
Because this discussion has reappeared so often in the Special Education forum, a file on the EMPIRICAL research available has been posted in the Special Education Library.
I urge any teacher who is considering recommending retention, and any parent how has been asked to consider retention to download this file, and get to know the contents well.
Dr. Sam Meisels, in particular, has done some of the most important work analyzing how retention effects children. One of the cites is from a meta-analysis he did showing the long term harm retention causes. I urge people to read this report. If you do, then I seriously doubt that retention will still be seen as an option for a child who really needs to have some specific problems addressed.
SUBJECT: I Do Psycho-Ed Testing
Date: 96-06-20 00:50:20 EDT
From: BEllePsyD
I am located in Sherman Oaks, CA and administer the types of tests used to determine giftedness and learning disabilities. I also work closely with other professionals in case I feel that ADHD is an issue.
ADHD (both inattentive and hyperactive types) are a separate disorder from Learning Disabilities. They are treated differently and they are diagnosed differently.
If anyone has any questions, please do not hesitate to contact me via email. I will try my best to reply promptly and thoughtfully. If anyone who lives in Southern California (Los Angeles area) is interested in getting their child tested, let me know.
Dr. Brenda Elle
Internet HomePage: http://home.aol.com/BEllePsyD
SUBJECT: Re:Dyslexia? LD? ADD?
Normal
Date: 96-06-20 20:47:44 EDT
From: Sham2987
I am both a special educator and a parent of a 9 year-old ADD/LD daughter. The best advice I can offer is to follow your "mommy" instincts. I have found that this usually will at least clue you in on what or if something is going on with your child. Remember, no one knows your child better than you do! Good Luck!
SUBJECT: Retention, ADD, LD, ADHD
Date: 96-06-22 13:10:43 EDT
From: IthnkIcn
There is a free parent's packet available from the National Foundation for
Gifted and Creative Children - http://www.nfgcc.oa.net 395 Diamond Hill
Road
Warwick, RI 02886
There is also useful information and book recommendations at keyword Gifted, in the ADD, ADHD, LD folder. It's a large folder, so you might want to log it to read offline.
Teri
SUBJECT: Re:Retention, ADD, LD, ADHD
Date: 96-06-29 22:06:59 EDT
From: KREEPR1
I have read most of the messages and responses and would like to offer a few comments and suggestions. Most echo what others have said, a few reflect my own ideas as a relatively new special education teacher with an additional B.S. in Speech Pathology.
It is refreshing to me to see and hear parents and teachers that are concerned about their students and children. I was more than a bit disillusioned when I entered the work force. I saw a great deal of burn out that resulted in students not receiving as much as they needed and deserved in the classrooms. I also saw and DEALT with a great number of parents who DIDN"T CARE. THANK YOU for this feeling of relief and hope.
As for the retention issue, I also think that OVERALL it results in more harm and less good. I have 2 particular studenst in mind from my own experiences. In both cases, the students' inner struggle with being retained affected their behavior and learning. Retention is a very obvious separation of a student from his peers. These students didn't feel good about it. It was evident in the comment they made and the way they behaved. They become bored from listening to the same material. "I already did this" was a phrase often heard. I worked hard at attempting different activities, modes of presentation, group activities and failed to draw them in. I do feel some sense of failure because I could not lure them in but I do think the fact that the students saw themselves as "retained" did have a major impact on them.
Parents...you know your child the best. Work with your child..use his and her strengths to help them throught the weaker spots. IE....if a student has trouble with reading and/or math....get the book THE MATH CURSE" and use the math and math activities in the story to draw your child into reading more to find out what is next. The book is a childrens book....I've found it at Waldenbooks, Barnes and Noble, and Crown Book here in IL.( I forget the authors name...he also wrote THE STINKY CHEESE MAN and THE THREE LITTLE PIGS books. ) Activities like that are things I do in the classroom but you could also do at home to reinforce learning.
KNOW YOUR RIGHTS. Do NOT be afraid to assert them. I always try and work with the parent but it is not always possible. In the end, parents have to do what they feel is right as does the teacher. The view is often the same but occasionally differences do arise. Do what your heart tells you is in the best interests of learning for your child.
Things are a bit different here but those are my opinions. Good luck to all. Hope I have contributed or helped. I would be interested in corresponding with other sp. ed. teachers, especailly in IL.
Kreepr
SUBJECT: Re:Retention, ADD, LD, ADHD
Date: 96-06-30 08:46:06 EDT
From: SusanS29
"Retention is a very obvious separation of a student from his peers. These students didn't feel good about it."
Even when it isn't immediately evident, the statistics down the road are
chilling... these kids are FIVE TIMES as likely to quit without graduating
from high school as similar students with similar difficulties who weren't
returned. Talk about a bad outcome... :/
Many educators view it as a solution. Really it's a time bomb.
SUBJECT: Re:Retention, ADD, LD, ADHD
Date: 96-06-30 10:35:02 EDT
From: Ratatat
Susan, we've talked about this retention issue. Do you remember the educator who likened it to cutting a foot off of the top of the blanket and sewing it onto the foot of the blanket to make it fit the bed? It is such a perfect picture of what retention really is solving...just an illusion.
SUBJECT: Re:Retention, ADD, LD, ADHD
Date: 96-06-30 23:42:52 EDT
From: SusanS29
" Do you remember the educator who likened it to cutting a foot off of the top of the blanket and sewing it onto the foot of the blanket to make it fit the bed?"
I had completely forgotten that description.
I'm beginning to suspect that you never forget anything... I'm glad you reminded me of that!
SUBJECT: Re:ADHD/preschoolers
Date: 96-07-01 13:21:47 EDT
From: MRMR54
I've taught regular and spec. ed for 18 years. Recently our district added a pre-school handicapped program . About half of the children were able to enter a regular kindergarten class when they completed the 2 year program. I currently have 5 students (ADD,NI,Communication Handicapped) that went through the program and have done very well in my spec ed. K-1 class. I'm thankful for the early intervention. The children have benefitted from the special services they received and have achieved much more than other children I have taught that did not enter preschool programs. Glad to see you're interested in your child's education. That's the best you can offer, support and concern. Good luck.
SUBJECT: Re:My first grader can't rea
Date: 96-07-06 16:59:08 EDT
From: CANCELLED
Reversing letters is very normal for children when they are learning to read. You see, research recently shows that children see letters the way they see everything else, in 3D. But letters are two dimensional.
What your child needs is strong, systematic intensive phonics instruction like everyone else.
SUBJECT: Retention
Date: 96-07-07 19:50:24 EDT
From: METAL DECK
I really don't get why you all are so opposed to retention. My son just finished 3rd grade and is reading and doing math at a beginning third grade level. He was the youngest kid in third grade class (he'll be 9 in August). Why put him in fourth grade where he won't be able to keep up and he'll be sent back to his self contained special ed class. I see retention as a means and maybe the only means to get him out of self contained and into the mainstream. He is not LD in math and reading, just behind. I have talked to a lot of parents who have retained their kids and say it is the best thing they did and the kids dealt with it. I think a blanket approach against retention may be unfair to some kids who could truly benefit by it.
SUBJECT: Re:Correct
placement?
Date: 96-07-08 20:19:17 EDT
From: User457021
Dear Cathy,
Yours is a difficult situation. Frequently, students fall somewhere between the special ed. classroom and full inclusion. As teachers, it is our job to create a program that can meet the unique needs of all students. One suggestion might be to have the special education teacher and your son work together to find a general education classroom and teacher that interests him. Then, partner him with a VOLUNTARY study buddy. Perhaps your son can join the class for the first fifteen minutes of the academic lesson in one subject area, and then meet with his study buddy later to catch up on class work that followed the lesson. This helps him connect with a general education peer, might not push his attention level, and keep him working on the same material as other students. There are so many options if this is not effective; however, if the special education teacher is not willing to be creative, you're in a pinch!
SUBJECT: Re:opp/defiant disorder
Date: 96-07-08 21:10:49 EDT
From: Joyy2u
our son has been diagnosised opp/defiant disorder by a psychologist.he has also been diagnosised ADHD. he is 6 years old. it's been recommended that we try Inderal to help lessen some of his aggresive behavior.we are seeing the neurologist thursday.has any one had any experience with this med?
SUBJECT: Re:Retention
Date: 96-07-08 21:10:53 EDT
From: Ratatat
<< He was the youngest kid in third grade class (he'll be 9 in August). >>
Given that your son was about 6 months out of step in most states dictate that the child must turn the grade/age on December first, it was probably a good decision for you.
However, research FOR DECADES has shown that L O N G term harm is caused in a great majority of the cases. By long term, I mean by the time the child enters high school. And, it's because those kids are usually held back instead of having their learning challenges identified and addressed.
Retention does not correct a learning disability, but it can make it look like it has the first year to three that a child with an LD was retained. After that there is a marked decrease in the child's achievment compared to the peer group.
SUBJECT: Re:Dyslexia? LD? ADD? Normal
Date: 96-07-08 23:28:39 EDT
From: SHOWURIGHT
As a future special educator, and senior in the Varying Exceptionalities program at the University of Central Florida, I feel that your child may simply have a learning disability. If your child was dyslexic, this would most likely show up in his writing of numerals and simple words. As you mentioned your child has no problem with this so I would rule dyslexia out. As for ADD, you mentioned your child sits still in front of television programs like a "zombie". I seriously doubt that your child would be able to sit still at all if this were to be the case. I would caution you greatly as to push your child to be labeled ADD in that with this diagnosis often comes medication and this remedy often leads to your child being kept in a constant daze. I feel that if anything, your child should be checked if he has a processing deficit. This causes the child to have a problem understanding and reading. If you have done everything that you possibly can at home to help your child, I definitly feel that you should push him to be tested for LD.
SUBJECT: Re:Dyslexia? LD? ADD? Normal
Date: 96-07-09 01:53:52 EDT
From: SusanS29
"As for ADD, you mentioned your child sits still in front of television programs like a "zombie". I seriously doubt that your child would be able to sit still at all if this were to be the case. "
I know you mean well, but this simply isn't true. Many children with ADD can sit still in front of the TV. In fact, many with ADD aren't hyper at all.
If the child isn't hyperactive, then it's far trickier to judge the condition's effects. The child's head is pointed toward the TV but we can't peek inside his brain and see how long it holds his attention before his mind wanders, or how deeply he is concentrating, or whether that's a "normal" concentration or the "hyperfocus" we sometimes see with ADD.
Even if the child is hyperactive, there can be something soothing about the ADD that allows him to slow down.
It happens all the time. TV is a terrible measure for the presence or absence of ADD.
In addition many dyslexics don't exhibit reversals and many excellent readers do. My own daughter couldn't tell what was wrong when she wrote her name upside down and backwards, but she was an outstanding reader.
"I would caution you greatly as to push your child to be labeled ADD in that with this diagnosis often comes medication and this remedy often leads to your child being kept in a constant daze. "
Medication doesn't do that-unless it's the wrong med or wrong dose for that child, of course. I only saw one student in 20 years who was in a "constant daze" from medication. She didn't have ADD, and the teachers complained that she was too affected by it.
SUBJECT: Re:Dyslexia? LD? ADD?
Normal
Date: 96-07-11 00:35:39 EDT
From: RRatzlaff
As a teacher of special children, I would say that your child sounds perfectly on target to me. If he has grasped the alphabet, beginning sounds and some words/sentences, he should be well prepared for first grade. I would inform the first grade teacher of your concerns so s/he can observe your child as the year progresses. Perhaps your child is not quite ready to be pushed any further. Read to your child and relax. It sounds like your child is doing fine! As a parent of a 2nd child ready to enter first grade - I can relate to some of your frustrations as I attempt to work with him. Sometimes he just needs a break and not to have me "on" him to do work. So, I can understand where you are coming from. Relax and enjoy the summer with all of your children - keep working, but keep it light. And see how your child progresses when first grade begins!
SUBJECT: Re:Dyslexia? LD? ADD? Normal
Date: 96-07-13 09:55:40 EDT
From: JBunn59074
i JUST NOTICED YOUR POSTING..i TOO HAVE 2 SONS, ONE WHO IS GIFTED, AND ONE WITH adhd/ld Fun..isn't it?
SUBJECT: Re:Retention
Date: 96-07-15 00:54:08 EDT
From: PeterCB55
Ratatat,
I read the notes you and others posted on this topic recently, and thought to myself, yup, that certainly maps on well to my own experience. In many instances retention is recommended as a method of treatment for children with "as yet" unidentified learning/attention or other problems. In this regard it is a poor substitute for a thorough evaluation and some serious thinking through about the child's needs.
And yet, just the other night, I met with the family of a soon to be retained 8th grade boy. He is developmentally at the tail end of his grade-mates, due to a very late birthday. Two years ago he was diagnosed with ADD in the context of superior verbal abilities. With an extraordinary effort by his parents and supportive therapy they kept him glued together, and moving forward, despite emergent anxious and obsessive symptoms, in part a response to chronic stress associated with the impact of his markedly variable abilities and developmental differences compared to his grade-mates. Parents after much agonizing elected to hold him back and move schools so that he can have a "fresh" start. Interestingly, the youth quickly expressed relief at the possibility of having a "peer" group that would for once be in synch at a social and emotional level. While academics were only a partial concern, the issue of retention centered around what was becoming a chronic problem related to this youths sense that his grade-peers were often 1-2 steps ahead of him, he is not yet into male-female dynamics, while his soon to be 9th grade peers are heavy into the relating with the opposite sex. After careful review, I found myself cautiously supporting this position as it seemed to be based not on a question of academic ability as much as a recognition that his emotional/social needs weren't being met and weren't likely to be met as a "minority" member of his grade. Interestingly, many of the "suburban school districts in my part of the country frequently report that parents "red shirt" kindergarten age children and enroll them during the 6-7 year, vs 5-6 year, in order to allow their children an extra year to consolidate emerging skills. Also, some of the private schools will occasionally recommend that children who are cognitively bright, but socially and emotionally young, be considered for retention in order to place them with a peer group more suited to their "emotional" level of functioning.
Regards
PeterCB55
SUBJECT: Re:Retention
Date: 96-07-15 17:28:43 EDT
From: StarfishPC
". Parents after much agonizing elected to hold him back and move schools so that he can have a "fresh" start. Interestingly, the youth quickly expressed relief at the possibility of having a "peer" group that would for once be in synch at a social and emotional level. While academics were only a partial concern, the issue of retention centered around what was becoming a chronic problem related to this youths sense that his grade-peers were often 1-2 steps ahead of him, he is not yet into male-female dynamics, while his soon to be 9th grade peers are heavy into the relating with the opposite sex. "
Yes but (grin) -- there are some huge differences that probably make this student one in one hudreed thousand.
He's been identified. The problems are known. Very importantly, he is old enough to participate in the discussion and understand the possible benefits.
He's changing school and so it won't be a wholly-public humiliation (although unless he's also moving to a new neighborhood the neighborhood kids will know, and he will take heat from it-it may well be worth it to him.).
He's never been retained before.
There are so many mitigating circumstances here. In my experience it's extremely rare for the process to be so well-thought out. I find the idea that kindergarteners should be retained "for emotional immaturity" chuckle-headed most times. BUT it's a great way for schools to boost their test scores.
SUBJECT: update-repeat K or spec ed
Date: 96-07-16 14:22:00 EDT
From: Looeye
After checking in on this board again, and reading the recent posts on retention, I thought it was appropriate to post a follow-up on Matt, my kindergarten son who was recommended for retention, which came as a surprise to me as we had not been made aware that he was so far behind during the year. I began to do a tremendous amount of research and questioning. He had a history of chronic ear infections with hearing loss, and I wondered if we were missing out on a better approach for him by simply having him repeat K.
Well, it has been a long and winding road, and we still have more testing to come, but we found out that he has a permanent, uncorrectable, and significant hearing loss, not only when he has fluid in his ear as was previously thought to be the case. He also has some clearly identifiable delays in language, and some inappropriate social behaviors related to his hearing deficiency...as I call it garbled in/garbled out. Nearly all of his apparent immaturity is a related to his hearing problem. He hears pretty well in a one-on-one situation, but in a group setting he flounders.
What might have happened if I had taken the principal's advice?? He said," You are putting too much emphasis on his hearing problem." "Given the gift of time you will find that once he is appropriately placed he will blossom when he is ready." " We do not feel that further testing is appropriate, because development is eneven before the age of seven, making test results unreliable." And "These kids don't 'catch up', you must find the appropriate developmental placement for them".
So, Matt is going on to first at age 6 years 9 months, classified as special ed/Hard of Hearing. The school will provide a personal amplification device for the teacher so that Matt can hear her voice above the others. The speech/language person will spend time with him daily, looking for the glitches in his understanding, and fixing his misperceptions. An educational audiologist will work with the classroom teacher on strategies to help Matt participate fully in the classroom. He will get one-on-one instruction as appropriate.
Our public school has won numerous awards for excellence in education, and is visited frequently by educators who want to learn more about the program here. Even the U.S. Department of Ed has bestowed the prestigious Blue Ribbon award twice!! Nonetheless, when it comes to your child who is not falling into the normal range, it is necessary for the parent to become their child's strongest advocate. Surely, teachers have the experience of seeing many more children over time, but you know your own child best. I took the time to read almost every study ever done on retention, and even contacted some of the researchers themselves to ask about my particular situation (by E-mail, and got answers!!) Not every parent can or will do that, but please do not feel intimidated by the school. Trust your parental instincts and get more information. Perhaps you will find that for some reason it makes sense for your child to repeat a grade-there are a few valid reasons for doing so. Or, like us, you may find that other strategies make more sense.
I hope this helps someone out there. If you are looking for more information on retention look at my following post.
SUBJECT: retention bibliography
Date: 96-07-16 14:24:44 EDT
From: Looeye
RESEARCH DOCUMENTS ON GRADE RETENTION
Retention: Can We Stop Failing Kids?, The Harvard Education Letter, May/June 1991.
Carstens, Andrea and Andrews, Retention and Social Promotion for the Exceptional Child, School Psychology Review, 1985, 14(1), pp. 48-63.
Charlesworth, Rosalind, "Behind" Before They Start? Deciding How To Deal With the Risk of Kindergarten "Failure", Young Children, March 1989, Professor of Curriculum and Instruction, and Assistant Chairperson for Graduate Studies in the College of Education, Louisiana State University.
Cooke, Gary and John Stammer, Grade Retention and Social Promotion Practices, Childhood Education, March/April 1985, Professors, Department of Elementary and Early Childhood Education, The University of Toledo, Ohio.
Dawson, Margaret M., and Mary Ann Rafoth, Why Student Retention Doesn't Work, Streamlined Seminar, Volume 9, Number 3, January 1, Journal of the National Association of Elementary School Principals.
Frymier, Jack, "Retention in Grade Is ""Harmful' to Students", Education Week, Senior Fellow at Phi Delta Kappa, Bloomington, IN.
Hamilton, Bruce and Sue Burkholder, A Team Approach to Grade Advancement, Streamlined Seminar, Volume 9, Number 3, January 1, Journal of the National Association of Elementary School Principals.
Holmes, C. Thomas and Kenneth M. Matthews, The Effects of Non-Promotion on Elementary and Junior High School Pupils: A Meta-Analysis, Review of Educational Research, Summer 1984, , Juel, Connie and Judy A. Leavell, Retention and Non-Retention of At-Risk Readers in First Grade and Their Subsequent Reading Achievement, Journal of Learning Disabilities, 21(9), November 1988, 571-580.
McNergney, Robert and Martin Haberman, Retention Holds Kids Back, NEA Today, November 1989.
Meisels, Samuel, Four Myths About America's Kindergartens, Education Week.
Meisels, Samuel J., High-Stakes Testing, Educational Leadership, April 1989, The use of readiness tests to classify, promote and retain children is inappropriate and costly; we can help young students begin school more successfully by reformulating curriculum and classroom organization.
Meisels, Samuel J., Uses and Abuses of Developmental Screening and School Readiness Testing, Young Children, January 1987, Professor in the School of Education and Research Scientist in the Center for Human Growth and Development at The University of Michigan, Ann Arbor.
Meisels, Samuel J., Iatrogenic Effects: Doing Harm by Doing Good:
Iatrogenic Effects of Early
Childhood Enrollment and Promotion Policies, Early Childhood Research Quarterly (1991), Center for Human Growth and Development, The University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, "This paper examines the rationale and research data about four practices: Raising the age at entry, retention in grade, extra-year and transition programs, and parental holding out from kindergarten. The problematic effects of these phenomena are identified, and their role in establishing a "four-tiered kindergarten" is described. An alternative approach to conceptualizing readiness that is free of these negative effects is presented."
Continued in next post...
SUBJECT: retention biblio cont.
Date: 96-07-16 14:26:29 EDT
From: Looeye
Meisels, Samuel J., and Liaw Fong-ruey, Retention Effects: Does Early Retention in Grade Reduce the Risk of Later Academic Failure? Center for Human Growth and Development, The University of Michigan, Ann Arbor, Submitted: January 11, 1991. This study examined the impact of retention in kindergarten through grade three by using data from the National Education Longitudinal Student of 1988. First, student who were retained in K-3 were compared with those retained in grades 4-8. Second, K-3 retainees were compared with a group of non-retainees who were matched on grade, race, sex and social class. Results show that early retention is not unequivocally superior to later retention, although the negative impact of retention may have been more exaggerated for the late retainees whose experience of failure was a closer proximity to the point of assessment. In comparisons of students retained K-3 with the matched group of non-retainees, the non-retained students had higher grades, test scores, self-concept, and locus of control than the retained group. Arguments against retention policies are strengthened by these findings. The importance of implementing alternative methods of assisting students at-risk for academic failure is noted.
Norton, M. Scott, What Happens If We Fail Johnny?, The Clearing House for the Contemporary Educator in Middle and Secondary Schools, March 1987.
Peterson, Sarah E., et al, A Longitudinal Study of the Effects of Retention/Promotion on Academic Achievement, American Educational Research Journal, 1987, 24(1), 107-18.
Rafoth, Mary Ann, Dawson, Margaret and Karen Carey, Supporting Paper on Retention, Communiqu_, December 1988, p. 17.
Rose, Janet S., Frederic J. Medway, V. L. Cantrell, Susan H. Marus, A Fresh Look at the Retention-Promotion Controversy, Journal of School Psychology, December 1981.
Rumberger, Russell W., High School Dropouts: A Review of Issues and Evidence, Review of Educational Research, 1987, 57(2), pp. 101-122.
Shepard, Lorrie A., and Mary Lee Smith, What Doesn't Work: The Practice of Retention in the Elementary Grades, Communiqu_, Education Week, September 1989.
Shepard, Lorrie A., Mary Lee Smith (editors), Flunking Grades: Research and Policies on Retention., Falmer Press, New York, 1989.
To find these articles you will probably need to visit a college or university library.
Good luck!
SUBJECT: Re:update-repeat K or spec ed
Date: 96-07-16 15:25:06 EDT
From: SusanS29
"Our public school has won numerous awards for excellence in education, and is visited frequently by educators who want to learn more about the program here. Even the U.S. Department of Ed has bestowed the prestigious Blue Ribbon award twice!! Nonetheless, when it comes to your child who is not falling into the normal range, it is necessary for the parent to become their child's strongest advocate."
Absolutely. Most schools (even very good ones) sincerely believe retention is often a good idea.
To reverse that they would have to accept that they made the wrong recommendations over and over for many years, so there's an emotional tendency to defend the status quo.
Only a parent can buck it.
SUBJECT: Re:to retain or not?
Date: 96-07-25 10:30:55 EDT
From: PJOEC99
I had no idea that there was so much negative feeling on the subject of retention!
How are retention decisions usually made within a k-3 situation?Among teachers, principal, parents?
Is or should testing of some sort be done on the child?
If so, what specific tests?
What are a parents rights regarding retention? Can they disagree and insist the child move ahead?
When during the year should a parent be notified of the possibility of retention?
After being retained, how is the child "helped" through the grade? Or do they normally just repeat the grade as one of the regular class students or do/should they get special attention/classes/help?
I have heard it said that by about the third grade emotional, social and academic skills kind of even out and this is where many kids who really can't keep up are noticed. Is this generalization true? Is there a magical age where you can say, my child really can't keep up and should be held back? Why has the idea of retaining become so inappropriate as a solution?
SUBJECT: Re:Retention
Date: 96-07-25 21:04:39 EDT
From: Ratatat
"After careful review, I found myself cautiously supporting this position as it seemed to be based not on a question of academic ability as much as a recognition that his emotional/social needs weren't being met and weren't likely to be met as a "minority" member of his grade. "
Peter, I commend the comprehensive and thorough evaluation that you and this child's parents underwent to gather all the important information, look at it and make a decision based on sound reasoning. I does seem like in this case the appropriate decision has been carefully made.
Unfortunately retention decisions are too seldom made based on impressions, shallow observations and information. The only piece I can add to the previous posted list of mitigating circumstances that make this situation so unique is that you also had the involvement, understanding, comprehension and support of the parents who clearly are going to provide this child with the vigilence to supervise his environment in order to suceed.
SUBJECT: Re:retention biblio cont.
Date: 96-07-25 21:16:41 EDT
From: Ratatat
I have read each and every one of the original reports of those research cites you posted. In my mind they completely support NOT retaining a child. Unless there is a unique circumstance such as the one that Peter posted to us about, retention just does not work. It does not work because it does not uncover the reasons a child might be struggling. It doesn't not change normal childhood development.
By about 7th grade those "red shirted" kindergarteners will be big hairy boys and well-figured girls in setting where it is not yet "age appropriate" to be so. They will be developmentally out of place. Those kids who were held back because they were immature will suddenly be physically too mature.
I believe, from my readings and from watching my own children and their peers that these kids are developmentally all over the place well into the middle of high school and sometimes beyond. I think it is time for the schools to remove retention as an option so that they will have to look at other solutions that are more child-centered and sensitive. It is time for teachers to not just teach subject but to teach students.
I think that part of the problems that we have with education today is that there is too much categorization of things that cannot be pegged into neat, tiddy little boxes in terms of when and how children learn and develop. Education has become very "prescriptive" in a sense. There are too many "work levels/stations" that children are supposed to arrive at and at certain moments in their life. This is not how children grow or learn. I think it is pretty sad.
SUBJECT: Re:Retention
Date: 96-07-26 07:57:08 EDT
From: Ratatat
<<Unfortunately retention decisions are too seldom made based on impressions,
shallow observations and information. <<
Ooops.....
Should have read: ....are too OFTEN made....
SUBJECT: Re:my cousin...
Date: 96-07-26 23:16:57 EDT
From: HOneal412
Butt out! It aint your kid! Leave your cousin alone!!!!
SUBJECT: Re:my
cousin...
Date: 96-07-27 08:52:58 EDT
From: Ratatat
<<Butt out! It aint your kid! Leave your cousin alone!!!!>>
HOneal, Just a reminder that these boards are here to provide SUPPORT. Disagreement is certainly allowed and a lively debate is welcome. However, I think there are much better and gentler ways to state one's disagreement that has been chosen in your post. Please, help keep these boards be a place where people can come with concerns, questions and issues and feel safe posting without worry of being attacked.
Thank you.
Ratatat, Assistant Host - Special Education Forum
SUBJECT: Re:my cousin...
Date: 96-07-27 12:11:49 EDT
From: Louise42
Britta,
Try to give your cousin extra stimulation when you spend ime with her? She doesn't have books-bring some with bright colorful pictures with you. Try and get her interested in other items. To test her hearing you could take different noise/musical toys, and at different times try and make nthe noise in different spots. If she doesn't epond to a certain noise or directin, then you might want to suggest getting her hearing testing. Does her mom feel there is a problem?
Julianne
SUBJECT: Re:to retain or not?
Date: 96-07-31 19:17:48 EDT
From: SusanS29
"Why has the idea of retaining become so inappropriate as a solution?"
Because it's not a solution. It's a "pseudo-solution." It masquerades as a solution. Meanwhile it has two devastating effects.
First, the real problem doesn't get uncovered and addressed.
Second, students who have been retained are five times as likely to drop out of high school as students with similar achievement levels at the time of retention but who were not retained.
Retention is an excellent approach if you want to decrease the number of high school graduates your school produces.
SUBJECT: Re:Correct placement?
Date: 96-08-06 22:04:44 EDT
From: MSS 256
As a parent you should be made aware that if your child qualifies for special education services, then they are entitled to testing modifications until they turn 21. This includes SAT, ACT and any other standardized tests that the child may be required to take. And these modifications include but are not limited to having the test read, giving the student the opportunity to anwser verbally, having the test adminstered in a separate location (ie resource room), and of course allowing extended time. Good Luck!!!
SUBJECT: Re:Dyslexia? LD? ADD? Normal
Date: 96-08-10 01:54:06 EDT
From: WLotozky
Hi,
My name is Alana and I'm a student teacher in Toronto, Ontario, Canada. I'm interested in special education and intend to pursue this avenue later on. After reading your note I wanted to quickly write a reply.
First and foremost, I wouldnt' be so quick to jump to any conclusions. He's six years old. I'm lucky if I can get my sister's twins (who are four and a half) to pay attention to me for 10 minutes! It's hard for me to say anything for sure, but based on what you have written he seems like a normal six year old. I understand it's hard for you since you have your other children to compare him to, especially since they are doing well in school. Remember though that all children develop at their own pace. Children these days get labelled too quickly as "special needs", even without there being very strong evidence for it. Try not to do that. It'll stay with your child for a long, long time.
As for you question. "what will happen to him in a class of twenty?"...for starters he'll have you. Most children aren't so lucky to have a parent work with them at home. You're a teacher's dream!
I'm sure he'll be fine. And if by chance he does fun into a few roadblocks, at least he has a secure base to fall back on.
Good luck,
Alana
SUBJECT: homework for LD students
Date: 96-08-11 00:08:56 EDT
From: Dl924
I'm doing some research on homework with LD students in elementary grades. Specifically, how to increase completion rates when parental support is not available or willing.
I'd appreciate any ideas from sped teachers or parents who have ideas that
work-
Thanks-Di 924
SUBJECT: Re:homework for LD students
Date: 96-08-11 09:13:33 EDT
From: Ratatat
<<I'm doing some research on homework with LD students in elementary grades. Specifically, how to increase completion rates when parental support is not available or willing.
I'd appreciate any ideas from sped teachers or parents who have ideas that
work->>
Can you tell us what the subject is? What the homework is? How much homework you are talking about? I have some ideas, but first I'd like to know more details about the content and expections of this homework.
SUBJECT: Re:Mislabeling of Black and
Date: 96-08-11 19:53:01 EDT
From: RAEMY0984
Sweetlumps- I am very concerned also could write volumes about my experiences, I think school systems know that they can get their quotas met with least resistance ie more funds to employ all their colleagues aand they target a lot of poor because they know peoples prejudices about single parents or poor people will support their claims of delayed dev. or poor parenting. Also the poor dont pay big taxes so they are no threat. Iysdiffeculy to fight this, but keep questioning- we are out here- I talked to a lawyer for NAACP who thinks its lawsuit waiting to happen.Also state Ed. Dept. and Fed. Dept of Ed. might be interested.
SUBJECT: Re:Dyslexia? LD? ADD?
Normal
Date: 96-08-12 18:34:49 EDT
From: JohnHester
Dear Mom:
Your son is still young to be starting to read, especially since boys generally are less mature than girls. However, you can help him additionally by using MULTI-SENSORY activities. Teach him the alphabet using various textures, i.e. tracing each letter in sand. Have him use finger painting (messy, but oh well). Let him feel letters made of felt, rough textures, sand paper, etc.
He should see-and-say together. Use as many senses as possible.
Sincerely, Ellen Hester.
SUBJECT: Re:Correct placement?
Date: 96-08-15 20:54:52 EDT
From: SusanS29
"As a parent you should be made aware that if your child qualifies for special education services, then they are entitled to testing modifications until they turn 21. "
Actually under the Americans with Disabilities Act they're entitled without any age limits. :)
SUBJECT: Re:homework for LD students
Date: 96-08-15 20:56:36 EDT
From: SusanS29
"I'm doing some research on homework with LD students in elementary grades. Specifically, how to increase completion rates when parental support is not available or willing."
Make absolutely certain the student can do the work easily and independently. The only appropriate level for homework (except when the student is truly ready for things like research papers) is REVIEW level. Drill and practice to nail down what has already been well learned.
THEN make sure that homework, well-done, will raise the child's grade.
SUBJECT: Re:Dyslexia? LD? ADD?
Date: 96-08-16 21:00:00 EDT
From: NGORD
Even if you go to a private school THEY can do preliminary testing that is usually the same the public schools would do. It will probably have to be confirmed by the county or state but my son was tested by his private school in kindergarten for the WISK3 and it shows definite signs of a reading disability. Even though it's early to "diagnose", I'm glad I started early because almost a year's gone by and they still haven't done the state testing, so the process takes a while.
SUBJECT: Re:Dyslexia? LD? ADD?
Date: 96-08-16 21:03:31 EDT
From: NGORD
I stumbled across a package offered by Charles Schwab, who is dyslexic and has a dyslexic son. It's only $20 or so and your school can order it free. I don't remember where I saw it, but I could look up the address if you want. It had everything in it you need to know when you're new at this and scared...like me. If nothing else, it made me realize how really common dyslexia is.
SUBJECT: VISUAL PROSESSING
Date: 96-08-29 03:28:59 EDT
From: KHaer10944
MY SON IS GOING INTO THE SECOND GRADE, HE IS GOING TO BE 8 IN OCTOBER. LAST YEAR WE HAD HIM TESTED IN SCHOOL AND ON OUR OWN. THE SCHOOL STATES HE HAS A VISUAL PROCESSING PROBLEM, AND HAS SINCE REFERRED HIM TO A RSP CLASS THIS YEAR. wE HAVE HAD HIM TUDORED 5 DAYS A WEEK THIS SUMER, BUT NOT MUCH HAS HE BEEN ABLE TO RETAIN. THE TUDOR HAD NOT WORKED WITH WRITING, SO I DID RECENTLY. HE WROTE COMPLETE SENTENCES BACKWARDS. HE HAS TROUBLE READING FAND WRITES PHONITICALLY.. I MYSELF AND HIS FIRST GRADE TEACHES WERE THE ONLY ONES THAT COULD READ HIS WORK. PLEASE HELP ME WITH ANY ADVICE.
SUBJECT: Help!!!!!
Date: 96-08-29 08:47:20 EDT
From: Sing440209
My 11 year old son, just entering the sixth grade, was diagnosed with ADD(without hyperactivity) and some learning disabilities(Difficulty with written expression, slow processing, difficulty with visual learning,questionable speech rate and fluency,difficulty with word problems/organization). We live in Palm Beach County, Fl. Does anyone out there have any advice for me with regard to what programs are available?You see, my son is borderline gifted(verbal IQ of118)and is currently enrolled in advanced classes.He reads on the ninth grade level, spells on the eight grade level, and is on grade level with math(except for application,he's on 4th grade level). I want him to receive special help with regard to his problems, but also would like to see him remain in the classes he's strong in. I'm concerned for his self-esteem problems and worry that pulling him out of the mainstream would be damaging.I have requested to meet with the child study team and have requested a speech/lanquage evaluation as recommended by the school psychologist that administered the testing.Does anyone know P Beach County well enough to know whether I am looking at a 504 plan or qualification for Special Ed?I've read that kids with learning disabilities and ADD don't always qualify for special Ed under I.D.E.A.This ADD/Learning Disability thing is totally new to me.
SUBJECT: re:help
Date: 96-08-29 20:19:29 EDT
From: Writes4pay
<<You see, my son is borderline gifted(verbal IQ of118)and is currently enrolled in advanced classes.>> Hi. My son who just entered 5th grade has a full scale IQ of 150 and was recently diagnosed with ADD (no hyper activity)....mild Tourette's Syndrome and OCD. Because of his high IQ teachers continued to say "he just wasn't trying". He is in the gifted program and does great during that class but the regular classes are very hard for him to stay on task in.
I would suggest to you:
1- Get a set of books for your house so when he forgets to bring books home he can still get the work done.
2-If he is not hyperactive I would not under any circumstances put him in any special class...his only problem will be focusing and staying on task he does not need to be segregated (neither do hyper kids in my opinion) 3-Have him write in an assignment book and have his teachers initial daily. Whether he likes it or not...if he had diabetes would you tell him he could decide whether or not to take his insulin?
4-Understand his ADD will at times interfer with his abilities and "borderline gifted" or not there are things he will not excell in even though the potential is there (this was the hardest thing for me to face with my son)
5-Above all be your son's advocate but that does not mean adversarial with the school Try to work with them before having to work against them. 6-Federal Law says that ADD is "health impaired" and 504 applies. Let the school know you know this and things will start changing. Good luck and keep us posted.
Candy
SUBJECT: visual processing
Date: 96-08-30 02:26:05 EDT
From: KHaer10944
Please my son is in second grade, and was diganosed with this visual
processing. The tudor that has been working with him feels he also might be
add, does anyone out there have any advice on a 7 year old child with this
kinds of problems? thank you
SUBJECT: Desperate Mom
Date: 96-09-03 14:27:28 EDT
From: Bushokie
My son is 10 yrs. old and is having terrible problems. After reading the book "Strong-Willed Child or Dreamer?" I'm beginning to believe that he is a dreamer with ADD. I put him in counseling a couple of months ago but I don't think it's a good fit. I called the Dr. this A.M. to request a complete physical and ADD testing. No response yet. He can't seem to do written work, stories, reports, sentences, etc. This weekend I was ready to have him placed in a locked facility, or maybe have myself locked up. He cries if I tell him to sit down and do his homework, which is usually classroom work that he didn't get done in class. He loves to read but has difficulty doing the written reports afterward. Help, please, I am at my wits end.
SUBJECT: Beckwith-WiedmanA
Date: 96-09-03 20:43:14 EDT
From: User422376
I am a kindergarten teacher looking for more information on Beckwith-Wiedman Syndrome. School begins in a few days, I know I am going to have a boy with this syndrome in my class, yet I know nothing about it or how best to deal with it. What I am being told by several of my colleagues is that they "think" it might have something to do with speech. On first meeting the child, however, I believe he has more than just a "speech" problem. I'm not sure if this is related to the syndrome or if I am dealing with more than one "disablility." If there is anyone out there with information on this, please help. I would love to help him but I need to know how. Also, another child has Landau Kleffner Syndrome. Another has a pacemaker. I do not have a Special Needs Degree yet I would love to be able to help all of these children and be able to provide their parents with information as well on how to help at home. If anyone has any info on pacemaker, Beckwith Wiedman and/or Landau-Kleffner, please E-mail me at 422376 @ aol.com Thank you so much.
SUBJECT: Re:Desperate Mom
Date: 96-09-03 23:38:53 EDT
From: SusanS29
It's not appropriate for unfinished work to be sent home for completion. That's a school-related problem, and it has to be solved at school, not dumped on you.
And DON'T let them take his recess! He needs recess. If it weren't important, they wouldn't take time out of the limited school day.
And I mean not a MOMENT of it. One thing missing recess does is single the kid out as a "screw-up" in front of all his peers.
If he has difficulty writing, let him tell you what he wants to say, and you write it.
If the teacher doesn't like it, tell her you got the idea from an author who writes book about alternative learning methods (me).
SUBJECT: Desperate Mom
Date: 96-09-04 12:19:53 EDT
From: Bushokie
I read the post in response to my plea, Matt wants us to help him come up with story lines and sentences. He can get it on paper after we help him with the ideas or with the actual sentences. Sunday he was doing a classroom assignment that was past due. His dad and I were giving him ideas and he got frustrated and said he needed "real" sentences. That the teacher would get mad if he used the ones that we were giving him. I feel like I'm the one doing the work and that he is not getting anything out of it, except for the check mark in the grade book.
I feel like I have robbed Matt of a good school experience by not having him tested for ADD a few years ago. I used to have to give him specific instructions, "Matt, go get your pj's on and then come back to see me" "Now, Matt, you need to go brush your teeth" "Now you need to go potty" "Now you need to get into bed" I don't have to do that anymore, but he has a real hard time doing his school work and I dropped the idea of him having chores because he doesn't have time to do the homework and chores. His teachers in our old school district in CA said that he was smart but lazy. One teacher who didn't like me because I was part of a parent group fighting the school district, took her anger out on Matt. His third grade teacher at that school sent home 85 pieces of classroom work that had not been completed during the on track time. She expected him to do the work during his two months of off track time. I threw the pages in the garbage. He couldn't even remember the instructions! Some of these pages were three months old.
The teacher he had last year and this year started out being pretty understanding about his frustration with getting his thoughts on paper. But I think that she is getting frustrated. He has had seven late notices in the last three weeks. He said that his social studies teacher was putting him to sleep. They were studying a subject that he was interested in but he said she was too boring. He's complaining that math class is too easy this year. Matt has frequently complained that school is too easy and boring. His test scores such as CAT in California and ITBS in Colorado range from 99 to 5. There does not seem to be any consistency. This year he tested a 5 in spelling and 91 in usage and expression. In second grade he tested 99 in math this year in 5th grade he tested at 33. I just don't understand. I'm rambling, I know, but he starts middle next year in 6th grade and I don't want him to drop out.
The Dr's office has not called back about testing him for ADD. The frustration level is just about at boiling point for Matt and I.
SUBJECT: Re:Desperate Mom
Date: 96-09-04 17:21:40 EDT
From: RHazen658
Bushokie, Hi, I know where you're coming from. Forget your ped doc, call around to different psycologists, interview them, about thier knowledge on ADD, and get him tested thought them. Then after the testing, get some counseling for you both.
My daughter has been made fun of since 2nd grade and sh's in 6th now. Her
self esteem is so low that she was ready to commit sucide. Testing was way
too late, but done and she has ADHD. She is on meds for depressiona and
ritalin, and biy what a difference. Not as much forgetfulness, and she is
more focused. not perfect but improving. Hope this helps, feel free to
e-mail me anytime. Oh by the way, get some books on ADD, 2 excellent ones
are Taming the Dragons, real help for real school problems. The author is on
line Susan Setley, another one is The parents guide for Attention deficit
disorder. Susan
SUBJECT: Re:Correct placement?
Date: 96-09-04 18:52:00 EDT
From: Clove44
I am a special education evaluation team leader. I suggest you have your child retested to find out his progress. second many schools now are doing inclusion with special ed students. Special Ed students are put in regular class room settings for math, English, and history.
SUBJECT: Re:Desperate Mom
Date: 96-09-05 06:56:03 EDT
From: Ratatat
<<I feel like I have robbed Matt of a good school experience by not having
him tested for ADD a few years ago. I used to have to give him specific
instructions, "Matt, go get your pj's on and then come back to see me"
"Now, Matt, you need to go brush your teeth" "Now you need to go potty"
"Now you need to get into bed" I don't have to do that anymore, but he has a
real hard time doing his school work and I dropped the idea of him having
chores because he doesn't have time to do the homework and chores.>>
You are very wise. What you did with your son was to break down a bigger task (Get Ready for Bed!) into lots of smaller steps. This is one of the single most successful "interventions" you can provide for a child with ADHD. Now, you may no longer need to break down the "Get Ready For Bed" task into smaller steps for him...but use this as your model for all of his tasks. Break them down into smaller chunks. This "chunking" is also an important intervention to help him at school too. Lots of small tasks, easy to accomplish, with a chance at success and praise all working in the direction of completion of the big task. For instance, for a spelling list of 10 words....only work on 5 at a time; Math, do 4 problems, take a break (provide praise and reward), do the next 4.
SUBJECT: Re:Desperate Mom
Date: 96-09-05 07:00:20 EDT
From: Ratatat
<< There does not seem to be any consistency. This year he tested a 5 in
spelling and 91 in usage and expression. In second grade he tested 99 in
math this year in 5th grade he tested at 33. I just don't understand. >>
Inconsistency is one of the "hallmarks" of ADD. The ability to pay attention varies wildly depending on how stimulating the subject is to the person. The levels of brain chemicals swing from high to low, etc.. This is not something that the person can regulate on their own. They need subjects presented in novel ways, big assignments chunked into smaller, a caring hand placed on the shoulder to "return" them to their task, a chance to do an errand and walk down the hall before finishing, etc....
SUBJECT: Re:Desperate
Mom
Date: 96-09-05 07:06:08 EDT
From: Ratatat
>> He loves to read but has difficulty doing the written reports afterward.
Help, please, I am at my wits end.>>
The suggestion to get a copy of Taming the Dragons is a good one for resolving this problem. Therre are some very specific things outlined that you can do to help your son overcome this problem.
My daughter and son had the same problem and what we did was "brainstorm" the subject together, and while doing so I wrote out the main ideas as quickly as we were talking using the "bubble outline" or "cluster outline" style. One we had one of those outlines down, then my kids, who could often "talk" the story better, would then dictate a rough draft to me at my word processor (verbatim - hold those urges to "fix it" as you type). The first "edit" was my kids' then I would take a look for grammer, etc., and change on the computer. Sometimes we would end up with a 10 drafts, but at the end...my kids' felt some real ownership of the work...and indeed they should have...it was from their heads...just came off of my fingers. Remember, not a whole lot os "CEOs" type their own letters...they dictate them.
SUBJECT: Desperate Mom
Date: 96-09-05 12:09:03 EDT
From: Bushokie
I'm starting to feel like there is a light at the end of the tunnel. All of the responses have been very helpful. Has anyone else read the book "Strong-Willed Child or Dreamer?" by Dr. Dana Scott Spears and Dr. Ron L. Braund?
I have found it to be very enlightening. Reading it was like reading Matt's biography. There are things in this book that he has said and done, verbatim. It was almost as if these Drs. had been following him around for the last ten years. The chapter on Dreamers with ADD was shocking. It's Matt. Especially about being doubly emotional. Is being a dreamer considered a learning disability? Or is just considered a hinderance? Has anyone ever had a child labeled as this?
The last two days at school have been "fun" on Tuesday, and "good" on Wednesday. The only homework has been actual homework, it took a couple of hours but it did get done. It looks like we"ve gone into the temporary honeymoon phase. Hopefully it will last for a couple of weeks. He's getting a complete physical on the 16th. Keep your fingers crossed for us.
Thanks,
Darla
SUBJECT: Re:Desperate Mom
Date: 96-09-05 16:29:52 EDT
From: Ratatat
>>he chapter on Dreamers with ADD was shocking. It's Matt. Especially about being doubly emotional. Is being a dreamer considered a learning disability?
Or is just considered a hinderance? Has anyone ever had a child labeled as
this? >>
My daughter has ADD w/o hyperactivity. One of the "nick-names" of this kind of ADD is "Dreamy ADD." Maybe because the distractions are all so internal that we, the observers, only see a spacey kid who's not quite connected with the environment. We implemented lots of interventions and provided lots of external structure for my daughter, but until we started her on stimulant medication she still just wasn't "available" to use all the bits and pieces of things we had been teaching her and trying to help habituate with her. The medicine, in addition to the rest of the "plan", was the last "corner piece of the puzzle."
SUBJECT: Re:Repeat K or spec ed?
Date: 96-09-07 00:02:47 EDT
From: MarHolland
Matt's Mom,
Mom knows best. I'm a preschool program speech pathologist. With Matt's otitis media - he should be tested.
SUBJECT: Desp. mom
Date: 96-09-07 20:55:14 EDT
From: Steholland
I'm sorry. My previous post was concerning another "little" Matt. But I had been reading your posts. I found them especially interesting as I have made the move from Speech Pathology with 3-5 year olds to teaching elem. age students with learning disabilities, many with ADD or ADHD. I have been shocked at the difficulty almost all of my kids have with putting thoughts on paper. It does not appear to be related to reading skills, in that I have great readers that still can't write. What I have noticed is that many have the same difficulty organizing their oral language. I have to echo Ratatat. We verbally brainstorm a topic. Working with verbal discriptions and comparisons. You'd be surprised at how difficult that can be. Another program I am using with tremendous success is Written Expression by Project Read. Talk about chunking! Tiny concrete steps. The learning of concepts is attached to the function of the word vs. an abstract label ie., noun. The kids love it because of immediate success. Builds self- concept...now they enjoy writing.
SUBJECT: Re:Repeat K or spec ed?
Date: 96-09-08 01:35:38 EDT
From: KHaer10944
Amy, I too have a son that is entering the second grade and is going to
be 8 soon. I am courious about some of the impulse disabilities you were
talking about. My son is having a hard time understanding and controling
his emotions, he gets very ANGRY quick,(he broke the jam on the door because
my other son wouldn't let him in the room) and he got hurt playing baseball
today-got hit very hard in the mouth- but his reaction was very typical of a
4-5 year old. If you or anyone can shed some light on this subject , please
e mail me. Also he has been tested for a visual processing problem. thank
you
SUBJECT: Re:Dyslexia? LD? ADD?
Date: 96-09-08 18:46:35 EDT
From: CBrulle
Since your son is just entering first grade, I think I would give him a little time before I started thinking there is a problem. I would certainly recommend talking to his teacher, both last year's and this years and seeing if they have the concerns that you do. I don't know what state you are from, but here in Illinois we would have a very hard time labelling your son as L.D. since really academically it would be very hard to determine a discrepancy between his learning and his potential. There is probably a huge range of academic abilites in your son's class and although you are comparing his with your other children, his teacher will compare him with many more. Remember, children develop at different rates and "average" is a very broad area. I would say sit back and observe him more and see his progress, how much he has progressed before you start thinking he might have a problem.
SUBJECT: Re:Repeat K or Spec. Ed
Date: 96-09-09 21:37:08 EDT
From: DFreder239
My child is 12 years old and she has a learning disibility, She has a preceptional problem, at least thats what the people at the CSE office said when they tested her. She took Visual training for the past year and a half and right now doesn't have to go back. She has just started the eighth grade and they put her in a MS1 class, I told them she didn't have a behavioral problem but she was put in a clss with children who don't want to learn. Children with behavioral problems. I need to know how would I go about getting her out of that class, and get her extra help. Maybe a Tutor. Any help would be a big help. Thank you in advance for your time in this matter Dfreder239.
SUBJECT: Re:Correct placement/retention
Date: 96-09-09 22:00:06 EDT
From: METAL DECK
I would like to thank all of you who responded to my various posts regarding
my son. Your insights were very informative and helpful. After much agonizing
we did decide to retain him, he will be repeating third grade this year. The
major change is he is moving from a self contained special ed class to a
regular ed class, which is where we feel he belongs. He will be receiving
resource to address his weaknessin the written language area which I have
questions about in my following posts. Thanks again,
Cathy
SUBJECT: Re: Taming the Dragons
Date: 96-09-09 22:03:49 EDT
From: METAL DECK
Taming the Dragons by Susan Setely
Where can I get this book? I checked my local library and Waldenbooks and
they don't have it nor have they heard of it. Thanks, Cathy
SUBJECT: Re:RE:
Correct placement?
Date: 96-09-09 22:05:46 EDT
From: DFreder239
My 12 year old has a preceptional problem and not a behavioral problem. This year she was put in a MS1 class with a group of children who seem to have behavioral problems. I spent all of the last school year trying to seek help for her. I have gone to impartial hearings so that she could be properly placed. Well up to now she hasn't been placed correctly. I noticed her problem at the end of her 5th grade school year. I noticed that she wasn't reading up to here level, so when she started the sixth grade she was going to Resource room. It was helping but the process was slow. She was reading, but still not where she should be. She stayed in resouce that whole year and when it was time for her to go to the eighth grade it got harder.
Last school year she went to three different schools. I have been in court
since Nov. trying to get her in one school, in the process I had to take her
to Committe on Special to be tested. They concluded that she had a learning
disability and it would be best that she went to a MS1 class. All I wanted
was to put her somewhere where they could and would help her. I don't want
her in a class with children that have behavioral problems. I need help I
don't know what to do. Any help would be a big help. thank you in advance
for your time in this matter. Dfreder239
SUBJECT: Re: Appropriate resource
Date: 96-09-09 22:12:54 EDT
From: METAL DECK
Last year my son who is thought to have a written language disability was in a self contained special ed class. He also has mild CP and borderline ADD.
His final written project of the year was a 15 page hand written report about
our town. This report was done over time and consisted of him copying all of
this information verbatim from a report the teacher had prepared and enlarged
to make copying easier. Does this sound like appropriate resource for a child
with a written language disability? Thanks, Cathy
SUBJECT: Re: Written
Expression
Date: 96-09-09 22:16:37 EDT
From: METAL DECK
I would like to hear more about Written Expression by Project Read. My son is
in third grade and has attentional and written language difficulties. I am
wondering if this would be an approriate program for him. Where can I get
info about it? Thanks, Cathy
SUBJECT: Re: Written Expression
Date: 96-09-10 00:03:20 EDT
From: Amalk
hello, Would anyone know of a journal or book called "SP3"? We had asked our 8 yr old's psychologist what type of teaching methods he would be recommending to the public school.Go to the library adn find the "Sp3" was the full answer. My son is also verbally "endowed" but performs with difficulty to write. We also heard that he was distracted and impulsive during the testing and play interview.
By the way he was given the xtra year in first grade, hoping that that would
give him that space to grow. He didn't make any progress except to magnify to
himself that he couldn't do the same as his peers. He has great social
abilities and many friends. Thus when the teacher would urge him to get
started, or continue the work to completion he presented a brave front and
tried to let on that it didn't matter to him. The school did sort of a mini
evaluation, an abbreviated slossen (left out the written and listening) and
told us that although he could't do the work of his peers (after 2 yrs) in
first grade he was obviously absorbing the material because that test showed
an verbal IQ of 125. We were refused any type of assistence or coach to help
him organize and then were told that he probably willfully withholds his
ability at school. That all happened between June and Sept. He has always had
good teachers, however the school is overcrowded. Any info would be helpful!
thanks, nan
SUBJECT: 1stGradr:Can't stay on task
Date: 96-09-10 13:08:20 EDT
From: Cookiecard
I am just heartsick...my daughter does not listen to the teacher when she talks, daydreams quite often. She seems to have a problem staying in focus and listening to directions. She likes to work slowly, trying to "perfect" drawings and work, gets discouraged easily if she doesn't know the answer. The teacher suggested she MAY have ADD. She is not hyper, gets along great with other kids, and with the exception of talking in class (maybe once a week she gets reprimanded) she is never a behavioral problem. Can a child have ADD and be able to watch a movie through the entire show, or sit down and draw pictures or color for 1/2 hour or more at at a time? There are two boys in her first grade class (15 kids total in the class) who have definitely been diagnosed with ADD, and when I visited the class, she isn't anything like they are...she's not a discipline problem to the teacher. I really need some assistance from any educators out there. Please help me with some ideas and or suggestions. I'll do anything I can to help her and her teacher. Feel free to E-Mail me privately as well. Thank you SO MUCH!
SUBJECT: Re:Repeat K or Spec. Ed
Date: 96-09-11 08:23:36 EDT
From: Ratatat
<< She has just started the eighth grade and they put her in a MS1 class, I
told them she didn't have a behavioral problem but she was put in a clss with
children who don't want to learn. Children with behavioral problems. I need
to know how would I go about getting her out of that class, and get her extra
help. Maybe a Tutor. Any help would be a big help. >>
I will assume that your child has been "classified" with a specific learning disability and is receiving services by means of an Individualized Education Plan (IEP) under the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (IDEA). When Congress originally drafted IDEA their intent was to put the parents and the schools on equal footing...to make them partners in a child's educational decisions, but with the primary "say" going to the parents. The school simply cannot place your child in a program unless you are convinced it is the right one to meet her needs. If you disagree, they cannot do it. Do you have a formal IEP? If you do, then at your next IEP committee meeting, you can sign the paperwork that you disagree with their recommendations. Be specific at the meeting about what you think you child needs (and doesn't need). If you sign that you disagree the school then has 10 business days to reconvene the meeting and attempt to come to agreement with you. If that is not possible at a second meeting then the process moves to a "mediated" settlement stage with an objective outside person helping to come to an agreement.
If you child has an IEP and you have already had an IEP meeting and you signed that you agreed (because many parents don't know that they can sign they disagree), you can WRITE a letter requesting a new IEP meeting. The school, again, has 10 days to meet after it receives your letter.
SUBJECT: Re: Taming the Dragons
Date: 96-09-11 08:25:13 EDT
From: Ratatat
<<Taming the Dragons by Susan Setely
Where can I get this book? I checked my local library and Waldenbooks and
they don't have it nor have they heard of it. Thanks, Cathy>>
You can order it directly from the publisher, Starfish Publications at 5621 Delmar, Ste. 110, St. Louis, MO 63112-2660 (314) 367-9611.
SUBJECT: Re:RE:
Correct placement?
Date: 96-09-11 08:28:59 EDT
From: Ratatat
<< I have been in court since Nov. trying to get her in one school, in the
process I had to take her to Committe on Special to be tested. They
concluded that she had a learning disability and it would be best that she
went to a MS1 class. All I wanted was to put her somewhere where they could
and would help her. I don't want her in a class with children that have
behavioral problems. I need help I don't know what to do. Any help would be
a big help. thank you in advance for your time in this matter. Dfreder239
>>
Brother! You poor thing. You have been through the mill. Have you contacted the Office of Civil Rights? They are excellent about helping parents get through the system and at getting the schools to comply with the federal laws. It sounds like you should be in touch with them and find out where is the best place to "push and shove." Also, remember that IDEA is supposed to include an INDIVIDUALIZED education plan that is worked out with the parents and the schools to very specifically address your child's very special needs so that she can benefit from the education the school offers. A pre-existing program is easy for the school to use, but it does NOT always respond to a child's very specific needs.
SUBJECT: Re: Written Expression
Date: 96-09-11 08:35:36 EDT
From: Ratatat
<<The school did sort of a mini evaluation, an abbreviated slossen (left out
the written and listening) and told us that although he could't do the work
of his peers (after 2 yrs) in first grade he was obviously absorbing the
material because that test showed an verbal IQ of 125. >>
With the difficulties you have identified your child as having you have every right to expect the school to conduct a COMPREHENSIVE evaluation. If they don't have the staff to do so, then they can refer out and pay for it, allowing you to select the person who would do the evaluation.
The Slossen is what I call a "quick and dirty" assessment...done in a few minutes, to gain a very rough and quick idea of a child's ability level. It has no measure that allows one to uncover a child's achievement level. It is usually only used by schools as part of a preliminary screening when there is a concern, but is by no means considered reliable enough to be the "last word."
You need to, IN WRITING, request that the school conduct a full and comprehensive multi-disciplinary evaluation of your son so that you can rule in (or rule out) learning disabilities, Attention Deficit Disorder, or other possible problem. DO NOT DELAY.
Once the school receives your letter they have 30 days in which to conduct the evaluation.
Also, call NICHCY (National Information Center for Children and Youth with Disabilities) and request from them information about the special education laws and regulations (federal) that every state MUST follow. Their information is completely reliable, excellent, comprehensive and free.
NICHCY: 1-800-695-0285.
SUBJECT: Re:1stGradr:Can't stay on ta
Date: 96-09-11 08:41:43 EDT
From: Ratatat
<<I am just heartsick...my daughter does not listen to the teacher when she talks, daydreams quite often. She seems to have a problem staying in focus and listening to directions. She likes to work slowly, trying to "perfect" drawings and work, gets discouraged easily if she doesn't know the answer.
The teacher suggested she MAY have ADD. She is not hyper....>>
My daughter has ADD without hyperactivity. She is much as you describe your daughter. The best thing that ever happened to her was to receive a great assessment from some people who are really expert in ADD and learning disabilities. Once we knew what we had to deal with, it was so much easier to help her and to know what do to. She has gone from a struggling and unhappy student to an happy, confident honor roll student. Her social skills have always been fantastic...thank goodness...her friendships have been one thing that she has always been able to gain confidence and self-assurance from.
If this were my child (and once it was <g>) I would have a comprehensive evaluation done ASAP so that you know what you are working with and can have a reasonable explanation about why your daughter is exhibiting the symptoms you describe. Knowing what you are dealing with is always preferable to being in the dark and guessing.
SUBJECT: Re:Correct placement/retention
Date: 96-09-11 17:29:36 EDT
From: SusanS29
METAL DECK I'm not a fan of retention, but moving from special ed to a regular class might just balance it out. Also if he's been in special ed the reasons he's behind haven't been ignored.
That's one of my big beefs with retention-often it's viewed as "the" solution, and the reasons it seems necessary aren't explored.
Good luck!
SUBJECT: Re: Taming the Dragons
Date: 96-09-11 17:30:11 EDT
From: SusanS29
I'll have the publisher e-mail you.
SUBJECT: Re: Appropriate resource
Date: 96-09-11 17:31:55 EDT
From: SusanS29
"This report was done over time and consisted of him copying all of this information verbatim from a report the teacher had prepared and enlarged to make copying easier. Does this sound like appropriate resource for a child with a written language disability? "
No. Does the CP affect his hands?
Do you have access to the Internet?
SUBJECT: Re: Written Expression
Date: 96-09-11 17:37:17 EDT
From: SusanS29
"We were refused any type of assistence or coach to help him organize and then were told that he probably willfully withholds his ability at school. "
That is extremely unlikely.
here's one option:
Get an outside evaluation. In the event they can identify the real cause of this difficulty, which they likely can, you can then insist that the school pay for the accurate evaluation.
Then, if needed, you can insist on appropriate help for your child.
That's the short version, of course (smile). There are lots of people on line who have been through this.
I'm an expert on children's learning problems. First graders simply do not "willfully withhold their ability at school."
Moreover, the Slossen doesn't show that he is learning the work. It shows that he has innate potential. It does not show why he isn't producing.
What you got here were red flags all over the place. Comparing the Slossen with his classroom production should have caused them all to say "What in the world is going on here? We'd better find out for this child's sake."
Calling a child lazy or willful is an action-stopper, and I urge you not to buy into it.
SUBJECT: Re:1stGradr:Can't stay on task
Date: 96-09-11 17:40:35 EDT
From: SusanS29
"Can a child have ADD and be able to watch a movie through the entire show, or sit down and draw pictures or color for 1/2 hour or more at at a time?"
Absolutely. Movies are designed to hold our attentionl. In addition, you can't look inside her brain and be certain her attention never wandered from the movie.
Art may be intrinsically interesting to her, in which case her high interest will help her channel her attention. In addition art done at this age doesn't require intense concentration. Her mind could be all over the place the whole time she's coloring or drawing. It's a great way to keep hands busy (look at all the executives who doodle during boring meetings).
I'm not saying your child has ADD-only that these things don't rule it out.
I have quite-pronounced ADD, but I was never a behavior problem either. Both my children have ADD or ADHD (one has quite pronounced ADD, and the other is more like ADHHHHHD, esp. when she was younger) and they weren't discipline problems at school either.
SUBJECT: Desparate Mom
Date: 96-09-11 20:49:46 EDT
From: Bushokie
I can't stand it! I knew that I should have kept Matt home today. I could when he finally came down stairs for breakfast this morning that he was "out there". The school called Dad today because Matt was jumping from the top of the play equipment at school. He was the only one of 6 boys to get caught. Turns out it was his idea. Right now he is crying because I won't let him climb out on the roof of our two story house to retrieve his frisbee. Says he got over his fear of heights today at school. At least when I told the Ped's office about the escapade at school today the scheduled him for ADD testing immediately after his physical on Monday. Hopefully we can last that long.
Also, at school he told the TA that caught him jumping to show him in the school rules where it said that he couldn't jump from the top of the equipment. Turns out they did it all last year and have been doing it this year without punishment. (per his older sister) I'm almost afraid to send him to school tomorrow.
Last night he had a book summary that was past due. I had him talk to me and
tell me about the book and then I typed it on the computer. He ended up with
his best report yet. I think we'll keep trying to do this. It really seemed
to help. Thanks
SUBJECT: Re:15 Pages
Date: 96-09-11 21:56:17 EDT
From: MarHolland
What did your child learn by copying that report? Have your child trace his hand on paper (or you do it), verbally brainstorm your topic, decide on main idea and write it on palm. Next, verbally walk him through a topic sentence and write on far left finger, Middle three fingers are your supporting detail sentences - write them in. The last finger is the concluding sentence (restating of topic sentence - in different words). Now your child is writing. Generating HIS thoughts to paper. He will learn more and feel better about himself with this 15 minute activity, than copying 15 pages of someone else's work. If your son has C.P., perhaps the Occupational therapist could be helpful, for fine motor. Does he, perhaps, work better with a keyboard than a pencil? Given the previous assignments and possible physical challanges - I would have a hard time keeping my attention to task. I'll get you Project Read info.
Hope I haven't bored you to tears with my handprint.
SUBJECT: Re:Written Expression
Date: 96-09-11 22:02:00 EDT
From: MarHolland
I don't care for the Slossen. I also don't think PIECES of assessment instruments should be used to qualify or disqualify a student for services. I like the Kaufmann batteries. Comprehensive instuments, with helpful input as to learning styles and strengths ie., simultaneous vs. sequential processing. As a teacher, that gives me an idea how to plan for and teach that child.
SUBJECT: Re: Appropriate resource
Date: 96-09-11 22:06:04 EDT
From: METAL DECK
METAL DECK<Does this sound like appropriate resource for a child with a
written lang. disability?>
SusanS29<<No. Does the CP affect his hands?>>
<< Do you have access to the Internet?>>
I didn't think so! I really need to get his needs addressed in this area especially since he is repeating third grade, we can't afford to waste another year. So far his teacher, who is a former special ed teacher says he is doing great. I haven't met with the resource teacher yet but want to go in with some suggestions.
The CP affects his hands in that he has difficulty using his right hand. He had surgery in April which has made the right hand more functional and he had a cast on his right arm while working on this writing project. He is left handed but that may be due to the CP since my husband, myself and my daughter are all right handed. He hates to write and took forever to learn to leave spaces between words. In his intelligence testing areas of weakness were visual perceptual organization and attention to visual detail. Am I telling you too much?
Yes I have Internet access.
SUBJECT: Re: 15 pages
Date: 96-09-11 22:22:03 EDT
From: METAL DECK
MarHolland <What did your child learn by copying that report?> Beats me! But I must say he was very proud of it and of course I praised him to the high heavens. But I was heartsick to think of all his wasted effort and of how all that time could have been used to really help him. The handprint sounds like a great starting point, I'll try it this weekend.
Thanks. Cathy
SUBJECT: Re: 15 pages
Date: 96-09-11 23:55:29 EDT
From: MarHolland
Cathy
With his fine motor concerns, an Occupational therapist may be great help. Our district has an Assistive Technology Assessment Team. We do assessments to determine what technology needs our specific children may have. An O.T. is part of that team and often can determine if a computer for written output can assist a student with fine motor difficulties (in both the resource and regular educ. environment).
SUBJECT: Re:Desparate Mom
Date: 96-09-12 20:25:34 EDT
From: SusanS29
" I had him talk to me and tell me about the book and then I typed it on the computer. He ended up with his best report yet. I think we'll keep trying to do this.'"
I don't know if your son has ADD, of course.
But if he has this is an excellent strategy. There's nothing harder we ask our brains to do than written expression, and it requires much that is taxed by ADD. In doing this you bypass some of the difficulties ADD can bring and let the student concentrate on his ideas.
SUBJECT: Re:15 Pages
Date: 96-09-12 20:30:46 EDT
From: SusanS29
"What did your child learn by copying that report?"
He learned to use his own ideas.
Your approach is very good with some kids, but it's extremely hard for many children who have ADD. They often can't hold their ideas in their head long enough to figure out what order they should go in.
To make things worse, the physical act of writing makes it still harder for them.
One way around this is to *not require them to order their thoughts at first. They can write one idea to a 3 X 5 card, get their thoughts down, and then put them in order. If required, for instance, to have an opening and closing sentence and three in the middle, they can pick and choose among what they have to select the best five.
I wrote an entire book by this method (and I have ADD).
Her post didn't say anything about "copying" a report. It was his ideas, and he essentially used a "secretary," something many professional writers do.
For kids who have trouble thinking sequentially (which includes the grea majority of them with ADD) writing is a pure trial. At that point you need a "work around." The 3 x 5 cards do that, and so does a computer, since you can insert the cursor anywhere.
SUBJECT: Re: Appropriate resource
Date: 96-09-12 20:32:28 EDT
From: SusanS29
The combination of ADD and visual-processing difficulties adds up to tremendous difficulty both with writing and with organizing it on paper- which is just what you've described.
I'm sending you the URL for my web site. It has some information on written expression you might find useful. :)
SUBJECT: Re: 15 pages
Date: 96-09-13 19:06:00 EDT
From: MarHolland
I'm confused. My 9-11 post refers to METAL DECK's 9-9, Appropriate Resource post. She does refer to copying, "consisted of him copying all of this information verbatim from a report the teacher had prepared". I may have misunderstood, I thought in this instance none of the child's thoughts were utilized, only the physical labor of the copying. I think we're in agreement that Mom's use of dictation (by being her son's secretary)is a much more effective way to stimulate cognitive growth, organizational skills (so critical for ADD), written expression and self-concept. I've met so many mom's that are "smarter" than the teacher.
The index cards are a great idea to use prior to the handprint. My goal had been for them to write 5 sentences on the same topic and then sequence. The cards will be a good way to brainstorm on paper prior to that step. I also think the physical movement and tangible aspect of the cards, brings the skill to a more concrete level. Plus index cards are like important grown-up type things! They'll love that.
Thanks.
SUBJECT: Re: 15 pages
Date: 96-09-13 19:20:26 EDT
From: SusanS29
"I'm confused. My 9-11 post refers to METAL DECK's 9-9, Appropriate Resource post. She does refer to copying, "consisted of him copying all of this information verbatim from a report the teacher had prepared". "
GOTCHA. Sorry.
Unfortunately, messages on AOL aren't threaded. It's not always possible to tell what message a response is referring to. That's why I often use the "cut and paste" to quote.
I do apologize. I should have realized that with all your excellent suggestions you knew what you were talking about! :)
SUBJECT: Re: 15 pages
Date: 96-09-13 19:54:10 EDT
From: METAL DECK
To clarify my 9-9 post "Appropriate resource":
The teacher wrote the report. It was in her words and they were her ideas. I just reread it and it sounds like something out of a history book not out of the mouth or mind of a third grader (not mine anyway).
Thanks for all the suggestions. I wish I was getting tips like this from school.
MarHolland, he has been seeing an OT at school for two years. She had him use an incline board for writing which he hated because it was one more thing for him to worry about (he wears a hearing aid, glasses and an AFO). I tried it at home and didn't see any difference with or without it. She works on posture, positioning, pencil grip, word spacing etc... It has been suggested in the past that he use a computer for writing. I have been hesitant to push this because his right handed fine motor skills are pretty much nonexistent and combined with his attentional difficulties I thought keyboarding may be too frustrating.
SUBJECT: re:fear of heights gone
Date: 96-09-14 00:18:58 EDT
From: Writes4pay
<< Right now he is crying because I won't let him climb out on the roof of our two story house to retrieve his frisbee. Says he got over his fear of heights today at school. Also, at school he told the TA that caught him jumping to show him in the school rules where it said that he couldn't jump from the top of the equipment. >> I was rolling on the floor laughing while reading your post. (Big huge wide grin!) Please don't get me wrong, I completely sympathize with your situation...it's just that the above words could have been written about my son when he was younger, in fact the same thing happened exactly!, and it was enlightening to hear these things coming from someone else's mom. BTW..Bobby is now in fifth grade is is absolutely ADDDDDDDDD without hyperactivity.
Candy
SUBJECT: help susanS29
Date: 96-09-14 00:23:25 EDT
From: Writes4pay
<< There's nothing harder we ask our brains to do than written expression,
and it requires much that is taxed by ADD. >>
Bobby has a "written language" LD besides the ADD stuff that interfers with
writing. Please help me understand what a written language LD is, and how it
manifests itself etc etc. ( I am a journalist and have noticed writing does
not flow from him the way I thought it would). If he caN
SUBJECT: susan again
Date: 96-09-14 00:28:14 EDT
From: Writes4pay
Sorry hit post...oops.
Anyway...if he can dictate to me he produces beautiful work. In fact he received a by-line in the local newspaper last week for a column he wrote on animal control. I typed his words verbatim and it turned out quite well. How can a written language LD be accomodated for a kid who has verbal skills that astound people.....so he doesn't understand why he cannot write wonderful prose?
It doesn't help that I get paid to write for a living....as does my father as does my brother......
The only time I EVER see Bobby look like he lacks self esteem is when he is trying to write something like a story or an essay. Thanks in advance for the accomodation ideas.
Candy
SUBJECT: Re: 15 pages
Date: 96-09-14 16:51:59 EDT
From: SusanS29
"Thanks for all the suggestions. I wish I was getting tips like this from school."
Although I think the teacher's approach (copy what I wrote) was terrible, the truth is that classroom teachers have no training in how to teach kids with unusual learning styles. In my experience even lots of LD teachers don't know what to do about written expression-if they even get to it. Part of the problem is that most of the focus is on reading, and math comes second... and somewhere down the road, often, written expression gets left in the dust.
For me, the best education on how to teach these kids was getting in there and doing it. I worked out the things I used because my students needed them. A classroom teacher isn't in that position, and lots of times written expression difficulties aren't even tested for thoroughly when the child is first evaluated. So it doesn't come up as a concern, and no objectives are written for it.
I have a suggestion for the keyboarding. Encourage him to use the keyboard at home. If he has trouble with a mouse, try a track pad. I have one by Cirque' but there are others. Look carefully at "alternat input methods."
Contact "Closing the Gap" in Minnesota. I don't have their phone number handy, but I believe they're in the MInneapolis area code. They have solved many difficult input computer problems for kids. Their specialty is helping physically challenged children use computers to assist their education.
Using a slant board is not cool, but using a computer in the classroom is cool.
One more thing-if he has visual perceptual problems, check out the screen on any laptop. Some are very hard to use. On mine, it's hard to know where the cursor is because the screen can't keep up with its movements. It drives me nuts and I don't have a visual perceptual problem.
SUBJECT: Re:susan again
Date: 96-09-14 16:55:20 EDT
From: SusanS29
"How can a written language LD be accomodated for a kid who has verbal skills that astound people.....so he doesn't understand why he cannot write wonderful prose?"
LD in written expression just means that those skills are significantly depressed either compared to his intelligence or his grade placement or age (depending on what state you live in ... sigh.) It doesn't tell the cause.
So tell me a little more about Bobby. Does he read on grade level (or better?) How is his spelling?
How is his handwriting? Did he have a lot of trouble learning to print and to use cursive?
Can he draw reasonably well for his age, or does he have a lot of trouble in this area?
Finally tell me any academic or learning-style strengths he has.
Tell me these things and we'll see what we can come up with. With luck we can come up with an approach that capitalizes on his strengths and helps him work around his weaknesses.
SUBJECT: re:susan
Date: 96-09-15 16:57:39 EDT
From: Writes4pay
<<So tell me a little more about Bobby. Does he read on grade level (or better?) How is his spelling? On annual achievement tests he scores 99.9 percentile in comprehension, vocabulary, and word attack, 89 percentile in spelling. However last year (fourth grade) he began to complain that he was having to read things over and over to understand them. For the first time in his life his achievment tests went to 65-75 percent in comprehension and vocabulary. If I read to him he comprehends post college level material. If he reads it I would say probably 7th or 8th grade. However he reads very poorly aloud... and says things about it all the time. (In short his reading skills seem to be getting damaged as the years go by) How is his handwriting? Did he have a lot of trouble learning to print and to use cursive? Oh did he EVER!!! Teachers used to rip up his papers in front of the class and tell him he wrote worse than a kindergartner and to do it over, then give him a 0 because he could not finish the 2nd time by the time the class was over. His handwriting has caused him horrible grief since first grade, but this year (5th grade) it seems to be improving, he erases a lot but even that is slowing down. He asked if I noticed his handwriting was all of a sudden better. But his teacher sent him to the office to do his work the other day because he said it was so sloppy he had to be punished for hurrying.
Can he draw reasonably well for his age, or does he have a lot of trouble in this area? I don't know....until a few months ago he was way behind in drawing skills but recently he has even been able to capture cartoon features on people and draw characactures quite well. But he has trouble with symetrics (sp) the head on a person is big, one arm is much smaller than the other and the picture is always lobsided.
Finally tell me any academic or learning-style strengths he has.Well, if he takes it in auditorily there is nothing he can't learn. In fact when people ask him where in the world he learned so much he shrugs and says "I heard it somewhere."
He is very very strong in science, and social studies (except maps..longitude and latitude are a mystery to him). He gets straight As in these subs. If he can touch it, build it, examine it he will memorize every detail for life. It's odd but if he studies a 40 line poem for ten minutes than goes about his business until the next day he can recite its entirety verbatim...but if you ask him to repeat a sequence of numbers you just gave him he is lost. The tester said his learning style is auditory though visual was almost equal.
If he writes a story, it does not flow the way he talks. Last year for the annual writing assesment the teacher told him to write the way he talks and he would score very well. He came home sure he had done great.....but the score came back a three, "marginal and obvioulsy flawed". He gets so caught up in neatness, etc he does poorly.
He does solid A pluses when it comes to using adjectives, adverbs, nouns, subject predicate, worksheets though. In fact every kid in class comes to him for tutoring in this?
See why I am confused?
Candy (thanks for your help) P.S. Long division is a bust, but geometry, and algebra (his grade level) is a piece of cake. Multiple choice tests are a game to him and he aces every one they give him. His teacher says his problem is he views school work as a chore and needs to get over it. But if it is science, social studies, grammar or hands on projects he loves it. He also loves group reading as long as it's not his turn.The SEARCH teacher says he is a GREAT asset to the SEARCH program and has input that is incredible. He comes home every day amazed at what he learned by "listening" to her teach.
SUBJECT: Re: 15 pages
Date: 96-09-15 21:54:52 EDT
From: METAL DECK
"A classroom teacher isn't in that position, and lots of times written expression difficulties aren't even tested for ..."
Funny thing is he was evaluated by the school in February and determined to have a written language disability. It was the special education teacher who assigned this copying project after the results of the testing were known.
I'd really like to bring these "15 pages" posts to the Special Ed Director to
alert her as to the type of resource some of these kids are getting. Any
objections? Cathy
SUBJECT: Re:re:susan
Date: 96-09-16 00:15:40 EDT
From: SusanS29
"Oh did he EVER!!! Teachers used to rip up his papers in front of the class and tell him he wrote worse than a kindergartner and to do it over, then give him a 0 because he could not finish the 2nd time by the time the class was over."
Oh. That poor boy.
" But his teacher sent him to the office to do his work the other day because he said it was so sloppy he had to be punished for hurrying."
You need a very good IEP for this child, one which will expressly forbid this kind of behavior. I know it will be expensive, but with what's going on I would urge you to hire an advocate. This is just appalling.
SUBJECT: Re:re:susan
Date: 96-09-16 00:18:16 EDT
From: SusanS29
"His teacher says his problem is he views school work as a chore and needs to get over it."
The teacher needs, in my opinion, a different profession. But since that isn't likely, you need a very assertive IEP. YOU will need to back it up. Make waves. INSIST that his learning strengths and weaknesses be treated with courtesy, decorum, good judgment, tact and respect. And don't back down.
There's nothing wrong with your boy except that he doesn't demonstrate what he knows well in written form. In the past these people were our story tellers, and they were revered.
SUBJECT: Re: re: susan
Date: 96-09-16 21:48:58 EDT
From: METAL DECK
"I know it will be expensive, but with what's going on I would urge you to hire an advocate."
I would suggest first meeting with your Special Ed Director. You do not mention whether your child has been evaluated for special ed or has an IEP. Sometimes the teachers won't acknowledge a learning problem unless it is spelled out in an IEP. Of course an IEP doesn't guarantee his needs will be addressed properly but it gives you a forum to air your concerns and stay on top of things. If you hire an advocate be very careful. I hired an advocate for an IEP review meeting and it was a total waste of money (if I had paid the bill). She couldn't remember my son's name and had to leave the meeting early. You know your child better than anyone and are the best person to advocate for him. It seems you just need to find someone at school who is willing to listen to you. I know it isn't easy but the more people you talk to the more likely you are to find an open ear. Check out the Special Ed Advisory Committee usually there will be someone more than willing to help (for free). Good luck.
SUBJECT: re:metal deck
Date: 96-09-16 23:26:56 EDT
From: Writes4pay
<<I would suggest first meeting with your Special Ed Director. You do not mention whether your child has been evaluated for special ed or has an IEP>> Yes he has one because he has a gifted IQ, in Tennessee that mandates an IEP. The IEP sends him to SEARCH. It also has "abbreviated lessons", "alternative materials", "testing out of homework each week." But in small letters they wrote "at teachers discretion" and at this school no child in SEARCH ever ever gets the things mentioned above. They are on the IEP as a courtesy. We have an Mteam next week (at my request). I am taking Bobby's pyschologist with me, and I have requested the principal, his regular teacher, his SEARCH teacher, and the school pyschologist be in attendance. I am also providing them with a 17-page single spaced report on all the testing I had done over the summer. The testing determined:
Bobby is an auditory learner
*Bobby is learning disabled in Math and written language
Bobby has ADD
*Bobby has Tourette Syndrome
Bobby has OCD
I know this school though and no matter what I do they have the attitude that "he just isn't trying hard enough, and that I am failing to teach him responsibility by asking for any modifications for him." In fact last week he did an assigment wrong and his teacher said to him in front of several students, "It isn't going to be like last year Bobby your mother is not going to be able to bail you out anymore." I have known since first grade something was getting in his way but no one has listened to me. Of course when I asked last year for modifications based purely on the obvious (he was struggling to succeed) I was poo pooed and apparently the adminstration talked about my trying to have him treated special or something.'
FInally at the last week of last year I took him outside for testing and lo and behold I was right all along. Now the school is in the position of having to see through the egg on their face and I do not think they are going to try real hard.
The shrink who is coming with me said he deals with this school on a regular basis and they are "very rigid and closed eared" but he has had some success in the past.
I am a journalist and will leave no stone unturned if I think they are out of compliance once the IEP is "firmed up" next week.
Candy
SUBJECT: re:susan again
Date: 96-09-16 23:29:42 EDT
From: Writes4pay
<<There's nothing wrong with your boy except that he doesn't demonstrate what he knows well in written form. In the past these people were our story tellers, and they were revered.>> I think this is one of the reasons Bobby wants to be an actor...he is so good at story telling and verbal pictures.
He has an agent now and will be going to auditions for commercials etc. He is excited and I think it will help to do something he loves.
Candy
SUBJECT: re:susan again
Date: 96-09-16 23:49:16 EDT
From: Writes4pay
<< I know it will be expensive, but with what's going on I would urge you to hire an advocate. This is just appalling.>> I don't know how old you are but there used to be a rock n roll song called "Bad to the bone". Everytime I envision myself walking down the hall to the Mteam meeting with Bobby's shrink on one side of me, his doctor on the other, and a two pound report about Bobby in my hand, that song goes through my head. (grin)
The shrink is coming with me, and his doctor said he is more than willing if I need him (he is one of Bobby's biggest fans). I feel so angry that he has suffered for five years that I will insist on things being addressed this year.
His shrink is pretty confident in his ability to make them listen too. Just because a kid talks like he is 40 does not mean he doesn't hurt like a child.....and they will have to start treating him like a 10-year-ols and watch his self esteem etc etc.
All I want are:
*Books in my house in case he forgets the ones he needs to study with * No more humiliation tactics to try to make him do better. (I know factually he is trying with everything he has this year, studying, reading and re-reading stuff for tests, asking me to study with him and crying himself to sleep at night because this teacher is "already getting fed up like the others' did mom, and I really like this one and wanted him to like me." This teacher tells him he likes him but Bobby gets sent to the office for "sloppy work" in front of the class and it takes the words away.
Untimed tests in some subjects
*This school has a strict policy beginning in second grade. If you turn it in late you get a 0. No exceptions. Bobby's 5th grade teacher takes it farther, if it is ten minutes late it is a 0. Apparently there have been several times Bobby has searched for his homework, his friends have helped him tear his desk and backpack apart to help him but it was a few minutes beyond the "turn in your homework" announcement... The other kids have said to the teacher "Look we found Bobby's homework, he did do it Mr. Eddy." and Mr. Eddy gave Bobby zeroes anyway. he told us at teacher parent night, "I'm sorry but if it is a minute late is is late and the kids gets a 0, believe me by the end of the year they will be responsible and turn it in on time.":
The shrink is going to insist that Bobby be allowed to make up missed assigments over the weekend and get full credit (I kind of have a problem with this one. It seems TOO helpful. I thought he should be able to make up his week's missed assignments over the weekend but lose 25 percent of the grade or something to help him try harder. The shrink says NO WAY, he has already suffered five years of "indignities" at the hands of disbelieving teachers and it is time to give him the chance to "self correct" self train and succeed".
Bobby is anxious. He wants relief from his pain so badly. But there is an ADD kid in his class and apparently when the teacher puts an assigment on the board he writes "Write 10 sentences using action verbs except ZAC write 5" Bobby says he refuses to be singled out and humilated like that every day in front of the class. so I don't know what we will do about abbreviated assignments.
Wish us luck.
Do you have any specific written language suggertions I can take into the Mteam with me?
The teacher actually write "Zac write 5" on the board? This teacher needs to be hung out to dry.
On your IEP you need to have written in something like:
Reprimand in private, praise in public.
And then a section called "Teacher's Attitudes and Beliefs" that includes something like:
TEACHER ATTITUDES AND BELIEFS
Send student's teachers to ADHD in-service workshop.
Provide student's teachers with reading material on ADHD.
Instruct the teachers about how stimulant medication works, and avoid any derogatory comments about the student's use of medicine or of the medicine itself.
Recognize that medication is only a part of the answer and does not address a students comprehensive needs all by itself.
Recognize that no two students with ADHD are alike and that there are multiple approaches to working with each ADHD student that can and will be different from student to student.
Encourage teachers to be flexible.
Accept poor handwriting and printing.
Accept characteristics of ADHD, especially inconsistent performance.
Do not and/or stop attributing students poor performance to laziness, poor motivation, or other internal traits.
Recognize that ADHD is biological and beyond the control of the student.
Recognize that student with ADHD perform at their best in a safe environment-academically, emotionally and socially. Sarcasm, bringing attention to deficits, constant criticism are to be avoided at all times. Children with ADHD respond significantly better when they are encouraged and feel safe to make mistakes.
SUBJECT: Re:re:susan again
Date: 96-09-17 06:59:01 EDT
From: Ratatat
And here are some other tidbits to help address this stupid teacher:
CREATE A SAFE ENVIRONMENT FOR LEARNING:
EMPLOY EFFECTIVE MOTIVATIONAL TECHNIQUES FOR THE STUDENT
EMPLOY ADMINISTRATION, FACULTY AND COUNSELOR INITIATIVES
Through hand-scheduling, match student's needs and learning style with teachers who have the appropriate attributes and can be most supportive.
Create an non-threatening learning environment where it is safe to ask questions, seek extra help, make mistakes and feel comfortable in doing so.
Praise in public, reprimand in private
Encourage empathy and understanding from the faculty, staff and peer group, and do not permit humiliation, teasing or scape-goating by these groups.
Provide clearly stated rules and consequences and expectations that are consistently carried out for all students.
SUBJECT: Re: Written Exp./ Project Read
Date: 96-09-17 18:47:26 EDT
From: MarHolland
Cathy, didn't you want info. on Pro. Read/Written Exp.?
I finally remembered to bring home my most recent manual.
THE LANGUAGE CIRCLE SERIES
Framing Your Thoughts
(The Basic Structure of Written Expression)
By: Victoria E. Green & Mary Lee Enfield,Ph.D.
Language Circle, P.O. Box 20631, Bloomington, MN 55420 (Phone: 612-884-4880)
(Fax# 612-884-6787)
The Manual is $45.00.
Language Circle produces an entire Language Arts curriculum. Project Read is a highly structured, phonologically based reading program. It has three subsections; decoding, comprehension and written expression.
SUBJECT: Re:Written Exp./Pro. Read
Date: 96-09-17 18:53:39 EDT
From: MarHolland
The decoding is addressed through phonology. (approx.48 units - spans K to 5th).
Written expression - Framing your Thoughts
(again highly structured - getting your thoughts on paper) Comprehension - Story Form (reading and writing fiction) & Report Form (reading and writing nonfiction and research papers)
SUBJECT: Re:Written
Exp./Pro. Read
Date: 96-09-17 19:05:10 EDT
From: MarHolland
Cathy,
Our district initially began using Project Read to address the needs of our students with Dyslexia. It was overwhelmingly successful. The district and school board felt that most children would benefit from a phonologically based program. In the last three years we have rewritten our entire Language Arts curriculum, incorporating this entire series. Overall scores are on the climb. Interesting that a program originally designed for students needing a more systematic approach, would be adopted for the whole. I will note that occasionally I meet a youngster, for whom a sight word program may be more appropriate.. but it is rare.
Mar.
SUBJECT: Re:Index Cards
Date: 96-09-17 19:16:35 EDT
From: MarHolland
Susan,
Your idea with the index cards is working out great! We took it a step further for a class activity. We used the large yellow post-it notes. Brainstormed as a group, verbally. Kids suggest sentence ideas and pieces for teacher to write on post-its. Drew large hand on board and sequenced our post-its by sticking them on the appropriate finger. ( topic sent., detailsent., conclusion). Thanks again, Mar.
SUBJECT: Re:re:
susan again
Date: 96-09-17 19:36:46 EDT
From: MarHolland
I have been trying to recall the name of a computer system which was developed for individuals with significant physical challenges. I know... what does that have to do with your situation? This program is designed for someone to speak into a microphone and the computer transcribes exactly what is said. It's probably far fetched - but wouldn't your son, with his excellent skills, be able to accomplish amazing things. Course there's still the editing,etc. But, learning to use that type of skill can only be functional for him, when he is an adult. It's also one heck of a modification. I wouldn't give up on teaching him how to write his thoughts to paper (so to speak). But maybe something like this could bridge that gap. If he could see whole stories from his head on paper. MMMM Just a thought.
I have a friend who is a professional story teller. Major league groups and organizations for that type of thing. I'll try to find some info.
By the way....good luck at your meeting.
SUBJECT: Re:re: susan again
Date: 96-09-17 22:10:46 EDT
From: MarHolland
"I have been trying to recall the name of a computer system which was
developed for individuals with significant physical challenges. I know...
what does that have to do with your situation? This program is designed for
someone to speak into a microphone and
the computer transcribes exactly what is said"
I believe the name of that program is Dragon Dictates by Dragon Systems. I understand its already being used by some individuals with L.D.
SUBJECT: re:susan again
Date: 96-09-17 23:03:41 EDT
From: Writes4pay
<<The teacher actually write "Zac write 5" on the board?>>
Yeah exactly.......Bobby was really cute when it happened. He wrote it down on notebook paper and stuffed it in his pocket. I am a journalist and he is always on the lookout for good news stories. He was really angry about the method the teacher used.....and asked me to call the boy's mother and tell her about it that night.
Candy
SUBJECT: re:ratatatat
Date: 96-09-17 23:08:33 EDT
From: Writes4pay
Thanks for your ideas. If it is ok with you I am going to print them out, leave off the stupid teacher line (grin) and bring the list to the Mteam with me.
Thanks again!
Candy
SUBJECT: Re:re:susan
Date: 96-09-17 23:49:20 EDT
From: LorBis
<<Teachers used to rip up his papers in front of the class...>> I cannot believe that teachers still do stuff like that. I teach special ed. also so I know it goes on, but everytime I hear about it I get crazed. Just had to let you all know.
SUBJECT: Re:re:susan again
Date: 96-09-17 23:54:20 EDT
From: LorBis
I can't believe what your son has gone through. Please post after the meeting so we can find out how it went. Good luck!
SUBJECT: Re:Written
Exp./Pro. Read
Date: 96-09-17 23:58:03 EDT
From: LorBis
I've read that Project Read is geared toward the adolescent. Is this true? If so, are there any ways in which it can be modified and applied to grades 1-4? I'm trying to find better methods for my students and have been discouraged from looking into Project Read. Thanks.
SUBJECT: Re: 15 pages
Date: 96-09-18 00:03:29 EDT
From: PeterCB55
Closing the Gap, has a Minneapolis, MN phone number:
612-341-8299
PeterCB55
SUBJECT: Re:re: susan again
Date: 96-09-18 10:24:09 EDT
From: Ratatat
<<I have been trying to recall the name of a computer system which was
developed for individuals with significant physical challenges. I know...
what does that have to do with your situation? This program is designed for
someone to speak into a microphone and
the computer transcribes exactly what is said. It's probably far fetched -
but wouldn't your son, with his excellent skills, be able to accomplish
amazing things.>>
This is voice recognition software for Macintosh computers. It's still rather awkward to "program" to a persons voice...and rather slow. Can't really keep up with natural speech patterns.
There is a very good catalog of educational software available. It includes software for regular education and some for special needs, including these voice recognition programs.
You could probably get a catalog. Their phone number is: Scantron Quality Computers 1-800-777-3642.
SUBJECT: Re:re:susan again
Date: 96-09-18 10:25:14 EDT
From: Ratatat
<< He was really angry about the method the teacher used.....and asked me to
call the boy's mother and tell her about it that night.<<
And....did you?
SUBJECT: Re:re:ratatatat
Date: 96-09-18 10:25:43 EDT
From: Ratatat
<<Thanks for your ideas. If it is ok with you I am going to print them out,
leave off the stupid teacher line (grin) and bring the list to the Mteam with
me. >>
Please do.
SUBJECT: Desp. Mom
Date: 96-09-18 15:11:14 EDT
From: Bushokie
Just got off the phone with the school pyschologist. She said that I called her a day too soon. She also said that I'm asking alot of the school to test Matt. His MD sent a note to the school asking for evalutation for LD's and speech evaluation and therapy. That one I don't understand. The school pysch. said that I need to understand what it is that I'm asking from them and that I need to be sure that I want to go through with it. Is this normal?? She asked me if I was clear about what she was saying and I told her that it sounded like I was getting the run around. That his MD wants these tests done and that they need to be done. The soonest that she could set an appointment for me, her and the classroom teacher to meet is next week on tuesday. My main goal is to get my son through school and make it a good experience for him. I feel like they're trying to set up a brick wall. His math teacher told me last week that he is just trying to manipulate me and I'm just feeding into it. In the next breath she told me that maybe I could be right about him because in ten years of teaching she has "never been able to recognize ADD or ADHD in her classroom, even when she knew about particular kids having problems". Boy, this gave me a lot of confidence. His dad keeps saying that he is just a stubborn kid and needs to get over it.
I could strangle him.
We're in the Denver area are any of the rest of you? I'm going crazy
SUBJECT: Re:re:susan again
Date: 96-09-18 17:18:42 EDT
From: SusanS29
"This school has a strict policy beginning in second grade. If you turn it in late you get a 0. No exceptions.'"
I suspect someone else will say it here also, but such policies *violate
federal law.*
They might as well have a policy requiring all children to walk to the cafeteria-even if they use a wheelchair for mobility.
It's every bit as discriminatory, and the Office of Civil Rights knows it. At this rate, OCR will be the people who explain it to your son's school.
SUBJECT: Re:Index Cards
Date: 96-09-18 17:21:05 EDT
From: SusanS29
Mar that's such a wonderful suggestion. I have a web site, and I have a section for teacher suggestions.
Can I put yours there? If so, can I credit you with the idea (your aol name and address)?
SUBJECT: Re: 15 pages
Date: 96-09-18 17:22:50 EDT
From: SusanS29
Thank you Peter!!
SUBJECT: Re:Desp. Mom
Date: 96-09-18 17:27:05 EDT
From: SusanS29
"Just got off the phone with the school pyschologist. She said that I called her a day too soon. She also said that I'm asking alot of the school to test Matt. "
Your problem here is phone conversations.
Wanna put an end to this... nonsense? (Gotta remember I'm on AOL and keep it "clean...")
Write the school psycholist a letter restating the conversation. This documents the conversation! If she calls and back-pedals, write a letter summarizing that.
MEANWHILE... Put your request in writing. Attach a copy of the doctor's
recommendation, but you don't need that.
Yes, by the way, I know what you are asking the school to do. You're asking them to do what they're mandated by law to do.
BUT (and many parents don't know this) -- unless you put the request *in writing* they don't have to act on it.
Don't be concerned about a speech/language evaluation. It's an appropriate part of a complete evaluation.
Once you put your request in writing the school has to meet a specific time table.
SUBJECT: Re:Desp. Mom
Date: 96-09-18 17:33:24 EDT
From: SusanS29
"His dad keeps saying that he is just a stubborn kid and needs to get over it. I could strangle him."
I sympathize with the frustration, esp. when the parents disagree but remember he's getting lots of reinforcement from the school. I have a friend in the Denver area who is on AOL. Can I forward your message to her?
SUBJECT: Re:Desp. Mom
Date: 96-09-18 20:30:30 EDT
From: Bushokie
SusanS29, yes please do.
Today was Parent/Teacher Conference. According to Matt's teacher he is doing fine "academically" but she is worried about what will happen to him next year in middle school. Yeah, no kidding. She said that until I brought up the subject of ADD "they" had never even considered it. But now that I've mentioned it, it just might be possible. The teacher wants Matt to have occupational therapy to learn how to hold his pencil. She says that he holds it too tightly and that it hinders his getting things on paper. "If he would just loosen up". All of his work has to be just so. He erases alot, (got that from me). When I was in third grade my teacher wrote on my report card that getting pencils with erasers was the worse thing that could happen to me. His handwriting is meticulous. Everything he does has to be as near to perfect as possible. It's 6:30, time to get to the story that has to be ready by tomorrow and he has written two sentences. God help me and Matt.
SUBJECT: Re: Written Exp./Pro. Read
Date: 96-09-18 21:28:01 EDT
From: METAL DECK
MarHolland,
Thanks for the info.
Before I spend the $45, is this something I can use at home? Is it appropriate for a third grader?
Thanks, Cathy
SUBJECT: Re: Index Cards
Date: 96-09-18 21:35:51 EDT
From: METAL DECK
Tonight's homework was to write a 5-6 sentence exaggerated paragraph (its raining cats and dogs). I immediately grabbed six index cards and got to work brainstorming. I wrote his sentences on the cards (without punctuation) and he put them in order and transferred it to the paper with punctuation. Worked really well. I think I'll buy some stock in an index card company! Is there a board that deals specifically with these types of tips?
Cathy
SUBJECT: Re:re:ratatatat and Susan
Date: 96-09-18 22:35:28 EDT
From: Wheels2082
The problem is that the teacher isn't listening thanks to the belief that the parent either doesn't care or believes that they can get away with it because rights aren't known. I've seen it too much recently through a discussion with teachers. Get to know your rights and let them know you know your rights.
Dawn
SUBJECT: re:re:susan again ratatat
Date: 96-09-18 23:14:33 EDT
From: Writes4pay
<<And....did you?>>. Oh yeah...I sure did. She and I have had a couple of discussions since then about what to do about this kind of thing happening. I am taping my Mteam, and she will tape hers and we are going to listen to them together and compare outcomes.
Candy
SUBJECT: re:re:susan again
Date: 96-09-18 23:20:31 EDT
From: Writes4pay
<<"This school has a strict policy beginning in second grade. If you turn it in late you get a 0. No exceptions.'">> I should have been clearer. No exceptions without being certified special ed (which I think is to harsh for 7-year-olds). Even with a spec. ed cert. they fight you tooth and nail about modifications but they do give in if they know that you know the law. Actually they only seem to fight about it when the child has an abnormally high IQ. I have a friend with a son who has an IQ of 80. They suggested modifications to her. But several of the other parents with higher than average IQ kids that also have LD's have been fighting like h*ll for help and are labeled as pushy parents.
Candy
SUBJECT: lorbis
Date: 96-09-18 23:26:35 EDT
From: Writes4pay
<<I can't believe what your son has gone through. >>
I could tell you horror stories.......what I tell my son is that when he is an adult all of this will just be a memory. He's a good kid, never gets into trouble (for behavior...plenty of trouble for unfinished assigments, sloppy work, not done by the time the egg timer on his desk goes off etc etc). I'll keep ya posted.
Candy
SUBJECT: re:lorbis again
Date: 96-09-18 23:30:45 EDT
From: Writes4pay
<<I cannot believe that teachers still do stuff like that.>>
It makes me crazy too. The teacher even says, "I know he is struggling, I see him struggle every day and I know it's real."
Well if he knows that then why not help him?
His answer is that Bobby is smart so if I just let the teacher handle it he will first fail but by the end of the year he will be successful, "Trust me, just trust me, I've been doing this for 25 years. I also have an LD son of my own so I know how hard it is to watch them struggle but I know how to "pull it out of him," so trust me ok?"
This is what he says to me.
Candy
SUBJECT: Re:Desp. Mom
Date: 96-09-19 21:19:32 EDT
From: Ratatat
<<She also said that I'm asking alot of the school to test Matt. His MD sent
a note to the school asking for evalutation for LD's and speech evaluation
and therapy. That one I don't understand. The school pysch. said that I
need to understand what it is that I'm asking from them and that I need to be
sure that I want to go through with it. Is this normal?? >>
It is important that you, the parent, request that your child be evaluated per the doctor's request, i.e., a set of comprehensive, non-discriminatory, psycho-educational evaluations by a knowledgable team of professionals, IN WRITING. And, one of the people who evaluates your child must be knowledgable in the area of concern (i.e., ADHD). Make sure you cc: the Director of Special Education in your district and the Principal of the school.
According to the rules, your school must conduct the evaluation in a reasonable amount of time. If they have a backlog and cannot do an evaluation within this "reasonable" amount of time, they must contract with an outside agency to do so (and, yes...parents have input as to who). Federal policy doesn't spell out what "reasonable" means, but generally they would agree that not more than 60 days to evaluation is "reasonable."
Once that evaluation is complete, however, they have 30 days within which to meet with you to developing an IEP should your child be found eligible.
I hope you've gotten the CHADD Educator's Manual. Much of this is spelled out in there. You can order one at 1-800-545-5583. Also, NICHCY is a valuable resourse for information about these processess - 1-800-695-0285.
SUBJECT: Re:re:lorbis again
Date: 96-09-19 21:24:31 EDT
From: Ratatat
<< "Trust me, just trust me" >>
I have learned that the last person to trust is the one who says, "Trust me."
SUBJECT: Re: Index Cards
Date: 96-09-20 00:12:13 EDT
From: SusanS29
"I think I'll buy some stock in an index card company! Is there a board that deals specifically with these types of tips? "
I should do that too... :) I use 'em for all sorts of things.
Periodically someone starts a folder like that but it seems the suggestions just pop up here and there, not in any real, organized way.
SUBJECT: Re:re:ratatatat and Susan
Date: 96-09-20 00:12:47 EDT
From: SusanS29
"Get to know your rights and let them know you know your rights."
YOU BETCHA, Dawn. Excellent advice!
SUBJECT: Re:re:re:susan again
Date: 96-09-20 00:15:48 EDT
From: SusanS29
"<<"This school has a strict policy beginning in second grade. If you turn it in late you get a 0. No exceptions.'">> I should have been clearer. No exceptions without being certified special ed (which I think is to harsh for 7-year-olds). "
That also violates civil rights, because not all children with ADD will be "certified special ed." They are still entitled to all sorts of accommodations if needed.
Candy it's really a shame you have to go through this. Have you been in touch with CHADD?
You also should get a book CHADD puts out. It's called EDUCATOR'S MANUAL, but I think it's extremely valuable for parents because it spells out the children's rights so well. I recommend parents buy two copies. It's inexpensive ($10 or so). I have them give one to the school.
Then the school can no longer claim ignorance (heh, heh, heh)... and you established that with a generous gift (heh, heh, heh...)
Order the book from Caset ASsociates. I don't have the 800 number handy but I believe you can get it from 800 information.
SUBJECT: Re:re:lorbis again
Date: 96-09-20 00:17:07 EDT
From: SusanS29
"<<I cannot believe that teachers still do stuff like that.>>
It makes me crazy too. The teacher even says, "I know he is struggling, I see him struggle every day and I know it's real."
Well if he knows that then why not help him?"
Because he doesn't know what to do.
Trust is nice but a plan on paper (one that's followed) is far more dependable.
SUBJECT: Special Ed Elig.
Date: 96-09-20 15:19:08 EDT
From: Sing440209
I live in Palm Beach County Florida. I have a son with ADD, Motor Tic Disorder and LD's, as well as emotional issues requiring counseling(Self esteem, stress mgmt, socialization skills)who is in 6th grade. After accepting my outside psychoeducational eval, they stated my son did not qualify for Special Ed services, just 504. We wrote a 504 and are currently taking him out of advanced classes and placing him in regular classes, (Inclusion classes, if you will. They have a teaching strategist available for those classes). I know that he needs special ed services, but the school system hasn't caught on yet, due to "lack of documentation proving that his learning disabilities and ADD adversely affect his academic performance."Please tell me how to effectively document this and see to it that the child study team also documents it as well..I fear that allowing him to struggle too long, for lack of ample pieces of documentation will be detrimental to his self esteem and wish to document this as effectivelt and quickly as possible. Why? Because the services he needs are not available under 504. He need and IEP, O.T. and Speech as well as a tutor/aide/ or teaching strategist in the classroom, to assist him with staying on task, writing down homework assignments, and explaining directions.
SUBJECT: Re:Special Ed Elig.
Date: 96-09-20 19:11:18 EDT
From: SusanS29
What you need to do is to call the Office of Civil Rights and tell them what you told us.
SUBJECT: re:susanS29
Date: 96-09-20 23:28:45 EDT
From: Writes4pay
<< Because he doesn't know what to do.>>
Susan that is so true! But I like him because he is trying. Bobby flunked a math test (got a 30 percent!) It was a test that listed A-B-C-D-E-F on board with corresponding answers. Teacher asked math questions and kids had to write the letter from the board that corresponded with the correct answer. I wrote a note to the teacher asking what ?'s were on the test so I could determine if Bobby just messed up the complicated answering system (ADD) or did not understand the material (math LD). The teacher wrote a note back saying "Sometimes he gets it sometimes he doesn't...I see him struggling...I understand, I'm not sure what to do to help him." It is the first time a teacher has admitted maybe Bobby's problems were beyond their cookie cutter methods and it was like a breath of fresh air. Bobby said when he failed the test the teacher talked to him and said "Bobby I've been teaching 25 years and have seen almost everything but I have NEVER dealt with a problem as complex as yours (ADD, OCD, two LD's, Tourettes and a gifted IQ all in one kid) ....we are going to have to be a team this year and figure it out together okay?" Bobby was sooo thrilled. He responded, "Yeah it's confusing for me too, but we'll work it out!" I am looking forward to the Mteam Tuesday. The principal is a rigid self-rightous "nasty word"........but if the teacher is on his side Bobby will do ok.
I am going to ask for: Books at home, math tutoring, written LD remediation, untimed tests, help checking his assignment book and positive reinforcement....and expect it all!
Candy
SUBJECT: re:susan again
Date: 96-09-20 23:38:07 EDT
From: Writes4pay
<<That also violates civil rights,>>
Speaking of rights please advise....
I am bringing to the Mteam a 17 page single spaced report from the tester that did an extensive "Bobby search" last spring......and I am bringing his ADD shrink.
There are things in the report that are non of the school's business, (for instance Bobby got molested at 4-years-old) etc etc. What I have done, with the shrink's approval) is take a black marker and black out every sentence in the report that does not pertain directly to Bobby's test scores, educational needs or learning disabilities. I know this school well, and there is no way I want all Bobby's persnal stuff in their little folder. Plus the bigger picture.....one day years from now he may get a "wanna be" shrink as a teacher, and I do not want her/him making judgements about Bobby before meeting him based on his "past". I do not feel Bobby being in a single parent home etc etc is part of his school stuff (people tend to make snap judgements about "divorced" children and their abilitites and "ADD")
Was I within my rights to black out what I did....I know I don't have to share the report at all (I had it done privately) but there are so many insightful test results as well as ADD, LD diagnosis and test results to prove it that I must turn it over to gain credibility when making my requests.
Sorry to ramble......the reader's digest version of this post is, can an evaluation be used that has everything blacked out except tests, results, and comments pertaining to the child's educational needs?
Thanks Candy
SUBJECT: Re:Edited reports
Date: 96-09-21 09:03:51 EDT
From: PeterCB55
Re: Writes4pay, raised an important question.
Can I edit out portions of my child's psych report that are unrelated to the question of his educational needs? I believe the answer is a qualifed yes. Because things are the way they are, you cannot control who reads a report once it is turned over to a school. Despite laws protecting your child's privacy, psych reports remain vulnerable to perusal by individuals who lack an appreciation for the meaning of the word "confidential". To protect your interests in this situation, a good black marker or white out, plus a copy machine are usually sufficient to do the job. However, to avoid the problem of editing out something truly useful I'd suggest you give the report writer a call and get their opinion before submitting the report. Obvious things like "father's history of running buck-naked through the streets at midnight and howling at the moon" are of little direct relavence when considered by itself. Rather, it's the relationship between this bit of data (whether fact or opinion) and your son's functioning in school that determines 1) whether it should be included and 2) how it should be included. In addition, competing interests sometimes emerge (e.g., your child's right to a suitable education, the schools need to know, the parent/childs right to privacy, and the clinicians duty to advocate for the best interests of the child/family) that can and should figure into the decision of "what" and "how" information in a report gets handled. Hence, good rule of thumb for novice report editors is "when in doubt get a second opinion, when in serious doubt get several opinions".
Regards
PeterCB55
SUBJECT: re:edited reports
Date: 96-09-21 11:18:26 EDT
From: Writes4pay
Peter.....thanks for your response. That is exactly how I edited it. When I first brought up to the ADD shrink that I wanted to do some editing before the Mteam meeting he asked me to show him what I wanted to edit out. I marked each line and he looked it over and agreed it was appropriate so my little black marker went to work (grin). Since the report concluded that Bobby:
1) does not suffer from depression
2) is not thought disordered
3) is emotionally stable
I saw no reason to leave everything in there that they drew the conclusions on. I edited the entire Roersch card test, the projective drawing test, the depression scale test and the Bender Gestalt Design test. (the last one was because our doctor says he has fine motor skills problems the report said it did not show up on their testing and I did not want to leave the credibility issue of either the doctor, or the educational speciliast open so I blacked out the whole paragraph since it will have nothing to do with his educational IEP)
I am involved in the PTO and fundraising at the school and am very aware of information being shared. In fact Bobby's fourth grade teacher volunteered to me (by name) which students in class were LD, ADD, emotionally disturbed, from divorces, and TCAP/IQ evaluations of children she was angry at. She surely shared all this with any parent standing within earshot throughout the year.
I have also heard the office clerks gossip to "favorite" parents very very private info about children, then add their arm chair shrink diagnosis as if they were fact.
Then the parents told others and so on and so on. Thanks for the support in my decision to edit. Damage control is not possible on the back end of things.
Candy
SUBJECT: re:peter again
Date: 96-09-21 11:32:18 EDT
From: Writes4pay
Hi.....I wanted to add that the other things I blacked out were family history. (Alcoholic grandparents etc etc) this is not a "need-to-know" because I have raised Bobby in an alcohol free, smoke free, substance free home since birth....but in the south if word gets out my family has alcoholics then Bobby will automatically be viewed differently. I left in any family history pertinent to his educational evaluation, such as the fact that both my brothers had ADD, as did Bobby's father. And one of my brothers was severly LD. I had an IQ of 148 in 4th grade (see what I mean about confidential info leaking out?(grin)
This school does not like to provide services for special needs, they provide cursory services because the law tells them to but they do not like it. Most of the teachers there gossip freely among themselves which is fine but they do it in front of students. Bobby freaked out about the ADD diagnosis because he said he has been in several classrooms at this school that when a child went to the restroom or was having a bad day the teacher would "share" with the rest of the class the child's problem. "Joey has not had his Ritilan today so we have to tiptoe for 20 minutes ok?" Or "Jimmy's father moved out last week so Jimmy is grumpy......bear with him while he sorts things out" etc etc.
Bobby was adamant at first that no one in his school know he has ADD, Tourettes, and LD's because he did not want the other kids hearing teachers talk about him. In fact the evaluation report states that Bobby forbid them from releasing any info at all to his school and how unfortunate it was because he so desperately needs help.
He has agreed, (reluctantly) to let me take it to the Mteam as long as I promise I will take legal action if they do not respect the confidentially of it.
Candy (we are moving to Nevada next summer.......hopefully it will be a better school situation there)
SUBJECT: re:susanS29
Date: 96-09-21 11:59:47 EDT
From: Writes4pay
<<Teachers used to rip up his papers in front of the class and tell him he wrote worse than a kindergartner and to do it over, then give him a 0 because he could not finish the 2nd time by the time the class was over." Oh. That poor boy.
Just to give you an idea of how things started out. I homeschooled Bobby for kindergarten then moved from Ca to TN and registered him for 1st grade. (I made no secret of his homeschooled background but said I wanted him to do 1st-12th in school). The first day of first grade, in a new state, 2,000 miles from everyone he ever knew or loved.......he climbed into the car after school and burst into tears saying "Mommy I don't think they are going to let me stay in first grade". I asked why. He told me just when he got settled into his desk (5 minutes after I left) a lady came and told him to come with her. He was scared but he went. They spent several hours testing him. When he asked what it was for they told him because he had been homeschooled and was from another state they had to see if he knew enough to stay in first grade or if he shoud go to kindergarten for the year. At this time Bobby had already had one IQ test in Ca and the full scale was 142. He did fine on everything they tested him for and after lunch they tested some more. I said then what are you worried about...."Because Mommy another lady came in the room and said 'how is he doing?'. The test lady said well academically he is fine but his handwriting is on the level of a preschool child." He wailed all the way home....."They aren't going to let me stay in first grade are they mommy?"
I was livid!!!!!!! and at the school within 15 minutes. I told them they can test Bobby with whatever they want to because I would not want him placed "over his head" but from now on they will notify me in writing that a test will occur so I can at least tell him to expect one and they will not talk in front of him about how he is doing.
This set the tone for his elementary school career. Of course they did not hold him back because of bad handwriting but it gave him a bad taste for public school.....that has been reinforced for 5 yrs with one exception. (his third grade teacher) who was a gift from God and made him feel worthwhile and okay all year long.
Candy
SUBJECT: re:susanS29
Date: 96-09-21 12:22:15 EDT
From: Writes4pay
<<Candy it's really a shame you have to go through this. Have you been in touch with CHADD?>> Yes...but I have not sent for their manual yet. The biggest problem is the principal who sets the tone for the school attitude. The previous principal got hit with a sexual harrassment suit that was publized on tv(the trial itself) and he was fired. (I hear thru the grapevine some parents set him up but who knows it was before my time)...anyway, this core group of parents that claimed he made sexual remarks (like...you look so pretty in that sweater I could look at you all day long and feel happy)...well they got to hand pick the new principal and picked this one we have now. Teachers are told exactly how to think what to do etc. Parents are called into the office for a meeting if they set foot in a classroom without express invitation from the school (I work so this is not a prob. for me but some others like to stop by and offer to help the teachers) the teachers love it but if the principal sees them there everyone gets in trouble. She is very equal in her treatment of the kids...for instance she hates me (because I had to report somethings she did last year in our paper) and she was totally humilated in court over them) but she has never treated Bobby badly because of it. In the three yrs Bobby has attended I have never ever one time seen this principal greet a child in the hallway, or at a function. She walks around with walkie talkie in hand telling other adminstrators in the building with walkie talkies when to excuse class, go to lunch etc. But she never says "Hi Sally, or How's it going Joe or anything.She just thinks that if you are rigid enuf, strict, enuf, intimidating enuf every child will become the same. There is also an extremely wealth fed school up the street and rumor is this principal has a real chip on her shoulder about having less "spec need" kids and kids who get better achievment test scores etc. Teachers are jumping ship by boat loads. In fact last year three teachers went to her with some concerns and she said "If you don't like it find another job". We lost six teachers by year's end including the two resource/SEARCH teachers, and the librarian.
This is TN and I hate to say it but we are still in the dark ages when it comes to education here.
Candy
SUBJECT: Re:re:susanS29
Date: 96-09-21 18:03:56 EDT
From: SusanS29
Candy if the teacher is going to use that format any more she has to do it one-on-one with him. I can't imagine taking a test like that. It would drive me batty.
Your requests are all reasonable and common. Good luck!
SUBJECT: Re:re:susan
again
Date: 96-09-21 18:05:42 EDT
From: SusanS29
"Was I within my rights to black out what I did...."
Of course you were. I think it's an excellent approach. I agree about the "wanna be" shrinks. Sometimes, unfortunately, you really do have to protect your child from these people.
Some things simply must not be hidden from the school. Seizure disorder comes to mind immediately for that. But some things simply don't have to be revealed.
SUBJECT: Re:re:peter again
Date: 96-09-21 18:08:32 EDT
From: SusanS29
Candy I am just amazed at how incredibly unprofessional some of the staff at your child's school is.
I think you MUST specify in this plan that they will NOT say any of those things.
the teacher NEVER mentions medication; NEVER mentions his ADD; etc. You may have to be extremely specific.
SUBJECT: Re: Repeat K or Spec. Ed
Date: 96-09-23 21:08:31 EDT
From: DAllen4125
Our son, a NICU survivor with a few lingering problems re spatial organization and fine motor coordination, had some difficulties with kindergarten but was passed on to first grade. In first grade, however, everything went wrong. It seems like most of the curriculum has to do with cutting and pasting, skills he was way off in. He qualified for special ed. assistance, but the fit with the 1st grade teacher and her expectations was so poor that his itinerant special ed teacher really couldn't help him that much. Despite reading way ahead of grade level, he was recommended for retention in 1st grade. I was absolutely furious about this and fought it like mad, but my wife suspected that he could benefit from having first grade again with a different teacher, one the special ed itinerant picked for us because she knew what she was doing. So my son was retained, and my wife turned out to be right. He had a great year the 2nd time in 1st grade and is now at the head of his class in 2nd grade.
I'm not sure what the moral of the story is. Had my son had the top-quality teacher the first time in 1st grade, he might have been a third grader now. However, retention wasn't nearly as traumatic for him as I had feared. (He's very small and has a late birthday, so he's not even the oldest in his class.) Someone in an earlier post said that she distrusted statistics and general rules when they're applied to individuals. I agree with this. So much, probably even too much, depends on the particular interaction between your child and his or her teacher. In our case, retention worked to help my son by bringing him, finally, to a gifted teacher who was truly motivated to work with him.
SUBJECT: Re:Index Cards
Date: 96-09-23 21:45:42 EDT
From: MarHolland
Susan
<Can I put yours there? If so, can I credit you with the idea (your aol name
and address)?>
Of course.... and thanks for that positive reinforcement! Works on big kids, too.
Mar
SUBJECT: Re:Written Exp./Pro. Read
Date: 96-09-23 21:50:21 EDT
From: MarHolland
Lorbis
<I've read that Project Read is geared toward the adolescent. Is this true?
>
NO
However, it can be modified for adolescents. Our regular educ. Lang. Arts
curriculum calls for all Kindergarten students to be exposed to Project Read/
Phonology
SUBJECT: Re: Written Exp./Pro. Read
Date: 96-09-23 22:07:04 EDT
From: MarHolland
Cathy'
<is this something I can use at home? Is it appropriate for a third grader?> My second through fifth graders are doing extremely well with it. I had to take a two day workshop to use the program, however I think that sitting down with the manual and taking it step by step would have worked. My only concern about using it at home, would be what happens at school. It's such an intensive program, that if the teacher doesn't support you...it may be confusing to your son.
Initially, labels are taught by function vs traditional grammatic label ie., a noun is a subject word, verb is a predicate word, adjectives are noun discribers, punctuation at the end of a sentence is a stop sign, etc. By third grade, I teach my students the traditional term - but only after they understand the function.
If your son's teacher doesn't agree with this approach..that could be a problem.
Wish I could do more. Mar
SUBJECT: Re: Written Exp./Pro. Read
Date: 96-09-24 00:39:58 EDT
From: LorBis
The Orton Society in my state is having their annual conference in October. The pamphlet states that the workshops will include a two-day session on Project Read Linguistics also will be held, "presenting a direct systematic, multisensory approach to teaching older students who are having difficulty mastering the reading process." It also states that workshops will cover such topics as "Project Read linguistics/teaching decoding strategies for adolescents with language-learning problems;". I'm glad you say it can be adapted-I want to attend but wasn't going to because I thought it was out of my realm of K-4.
SUBJECT: Re: Written Exp./Pro. Read
Date: 96-09-24 19:45:50 EDT
From: MarHolland
Lorbis,
"Though Project Read is an early intervention proram for grades one through six, it can be used with adolescents and adults as well." That's a direct quote from the manual. They also list an intermediate/secondary linguistics guide. Sounds like your workshop may be on that guide. (Therefore may not be what you need.) They offer workshops on each section of their program. (My primary phonology was 5 days!) I'd check the specifics before I committed myself. They have approximately 20 or so primary materials, 5 intermediate products and assorted others listed. Hope this helps.
Mar
SUBJECT: Re: Repeat K or Spec. Ed
Date: 96-09-25 00:41:54 EDT
From: SusanS29
"Our son, a NICU survivor with a few lingering problems..."
Your son's case is one of the few exceptions I would accept (sorry I feel strongly about this). Extra time often helps such a child further recover.
My daughter has a friend who had a cerebral aneurysm rupture when she was six. This is a devastating insult to the brain, and it's a miracle she survived.
She did, but at six had to re-learn everything -- even sucking and swallowing.
She's a most remarkable young lady, and is now a freshman in college-at the age of 19, clearly retained during this. But who cares? What a great person she is.
Barring extraordinary circumstances I stand by what I said about retention.
SUBJECT: Re:1stGradr:Can't stay on ta
Date: 96-09-29 15:24:15 EDT
From: JLamb4343
"ADD" is very complex syndrom. Hyperness is only one. Get in touch with a Learning Disabilities Support group. LDA is one line.
SUBJECT: Re:Correct
placement?
Date: 96-09-30 20:09:44 EDT
From: ACrens9530
Why don't you try a little bit of more time in the regular class. Maybe for a literature or discussion time. or a center time or maybe mainstreamed in a lower grade for more amount of time. Test scores are just one part of the puzzle. Look at the whole picture ... Good Luck!
SUBJECT: Re:re:re:susan again
Date: 96-10-01 05:39:21 EDT
From: Ratatat
<<Order the book from Caset ASsociates. I don't have the 800 number handy but
I believe you can get it from 800 information.>>
To order the CHADD Educators Manual from Caset, call 1-800-545-5583
SUBJECT: Re:re:susan again
Date: 96-10-01 05:46:45 EDT
From: Ratatat
<<Was I within my rights to black out what I did....I know I don't have to
share the report at all (I had it done privately) but there are so many
insightful test results as well as ADD, LD diagnosis and test results to
prove it that I must turn it over to gain credibility when making my
requests.>>
Yes, absolutely you were. You "own" all the information that pertains to your child, including the information currently on file about your son in the schools file cabinets. Most schools have a "cumulative file" and a "confidential file" on students who have special needs. Sometimes there is also a "compliance" file too. The confidential file is usually restricted in some way as to who has access. You might want to ask your school what their "filing system" is and what their procedural regulations are pertaining to the students' files.
Another way you could have approached the sharing of information from the "big" document was to write an education version for the school's puposes only...that way they won't get curious about what you blacked out.
Let us know how the Mteam meeting goes.
SUBJECT: Re:re:peter again
Date: 96-10-01 05:59:06 EDT
From: Ratatat
<<He has agreed, (reluctantly) to let me take it to the Mteam as long as I
promise I will take legal action if they do not respect the confidentially of
it.>>
Candy, you can write into an accommodation plan that the confidentiality of your son's be maintained and protected. In fact, here is some language you can use from an accommodation list that was recently submitted to and accepted by a public high school for an ADD student.
CREATE A SAFE ENVIRONMENT FOR LEARNING:
EMPLOY EFFECTIVE MOTIVATIONAL TECHNIQUES FOR THE STUDENT
EMPLOY ADMINISTRATION, FACULTY AND COUNSELOR INITIATIVES
Through hand-scheduling, match student's needs and learning style with teachers who have the appropriate attributes and can be most supportive.
Create an non-threatening learning environment where it is safe to ask questions, seek extra help, make mistakes and feel comfortable in doing so.
Praise in public, reprimand in private
Encourage empathy and understanding from the faculty, staff and peer group, and do not permit humiliation, teasing or scape-goating by these groups.
Provide clearly stated rules and consequences and expectations that are consistently carried out for all students.
TEACHER ATTITUDES AND BELIEFS
Send student's teachers to ADHD in-service workshop.
Provide student's teachers with reading material on ADHD.
Instruct the teachers about how stimulant medication works, and avoid any derogatory comments about the student's use of medicine or of the medicine itself.
Recognize that medication is only a part of the answer and does not address a students comprehensive needs all by itself.
Recognize that no two students with ADHD are alike and that there are multiple approaches to working with each ADHD student that can and will be different from student to student.
Encourage teachers to be flexible.
Accept poor handwriting and printing.
Accept characteristics of ADHD, especially inconsistent performance.
Do not and/or stop attributing students poor performance to laziness, poor motivation, or other internal traits.
Recognize that ADHD is biological and beyond the control of the student.
Recognize that student with ADHD perform at their best in a safe environment-academically, emotionally and socially. Sarcasm, bringing attention to deficits, constant criticism are to be avoided at all times. Children with ADHD respond significantly better when they are encouraged and feel safe to make mistakes.
Guard the confidential and personal nature of this child's disabilities by avoiding public discussion among staff about this child's needs and disabilities. Discussions concerning this child should be kept professional and confidential at all times.
SUBJECT: Re:re:susanS29
Date: 96-10-01 06:01:58 EDT
From: Ratatat
<<I was livid!!!!!!! and at the school within 15 minutes. I told them they
can test Bobby with whatever they want to because I would not want him placed
"over his head" but from now on they will notify me in writing that a test
will occur so I can at least tell him to expect one and they will not talk in
front of him about how he is doing.>>
Livid? I would have been murderous! What they did was beyond "unethical" and stupid...it was illegal. No school may administer any psychological tests without the express written permission of the parent! And, they must fully disclose to you beforehand what the testing with entail!
SUBJECT: re:ratatat and susan et all
Date: 96-10-01 19:03:55 EDT
From: Writes4pay
Hi everyone. Thanks for the support...it helps! The first grade testing was done before I had committed most of the state and federal statutes to memory (grin) and attended two training sessions about the rights of students with disabilities.
Regarding the MTEAM. It went pretty well except they refused to let Bobby have a set of books at home. Said they weren't for "kids who just can't remember to bring books home."
I called the school board today and talked to the special education coordinator. Explained the situation, repeated the Principal's answer about having books and asked her to explain to me with legal justification why my son who is certified Gifted/ADHD/LD cannot have a set of books. She very sweetly promised me they will purchase a set and he should have them in our house next week.
Candy (I play Columbo a lot...."pardon me ma'am, I just didn't seem to
understand this one little point, can we go over it again?" (hee...hee
SUBJECT: Re:re:ratatat and susan et all
Date: 96-10-02 00:52:02 EDT
From: SusanS29
"Candy (I play Columbo a lot...."pardon me ma'am, I just didn't seem to understand this one little point, can we go over it again?" (hee...hee) "
ROTFL Candy! I'm so glad things are starting to look up for you.
SUBJECT: Re:re:ratatat and susan et a
Date: 96-10-02 08:13:44 EDT
From: Ratatat
<<She very sweetly promised me they will purchase a set and he should have them in our house next week.
Candy (I play Columbo a lot...."pardon me ma'am, I just didn't seem to
understand this one little point, can we go over it again?" (hee...hee >>
BRAVA! Oh, you are gooooood! <VBG>
SUBJECT: Re:Dyslexia? LD? ADD?
Date: 96-10-02 23:32:20 EDT
From: GallegosD
Try real hard not to think of the child in terms of labels because when one does that, then the child is seen in a collection of traits to fit whatever traits are identified to the terms you listed. Try to see the child in operational terms, those being what can the child really do or not do. Look at the child in relation to other children of the same age and if possible in terms of similar opportunity. You must read up on the rights that children have relative to the Federal Laws of Individual with Disabilities Education Act and the Section 504 of the Rehab Act of 1973. If you are on AOL, then you should be able to read these laws in the Library of Congress or you can obtain copies from your Congress representative. I believe that since your child is just starting the educational experience, you must be the most learned and active advocate around for the child. You can make a real difference with the schools if you are certain about your child's legal rights and, of course, if you are able to convince the school that you are there as a support person who cares and not one who will be an adversary. For your information, I am a retired Educational Diagnostician (Special Education) in the state of Texas. I have spoken with many, many parents and others. Good luck!
SUBJECT: Re:My first grader can't rea
Date: 96-10-02 23:35:43 EDT
From: GallegosD
It depends on the child's age. Remember that the directionality of the codes may be confusing as the child is learning to orient from left to right, above or under. If the child were 8 or 9 years old and still reversing letters then one would suspect that the child is indeed having some form of confusion in being able to integrate the different shapes in the proper manner.
SUBJECT: Ding! Round #2
Date: 96-10-04 00:16:04 EDT
From: Writes4pay
Ok.....so earlier this week I got the books promised for our home....
Tuesday, Bobby calls me from the office almost choking with wounded pride. "Mom, Mr. Eddy said I have to call you and you need to leave work, drive home(15 miles one way) get my spelling book I forgot and bring it to me right now."
I was on deadline at the paper and already a lot of time off for Dr. appts etc so I said I couldn't do it.
"He knew when he said in front of the class for me to get up and 'go call my mother' you couldn't come mom, he did it to embarrass me." Bobby goes back to class and tells teacher he called me.
30 minutes later I get a call from Mr. Eddy.
"Why wasn't Bobby's spelling book at school today?" I reply that when he loaded up all his other books he must have overlooked it. (This school requests that parents NEVER bring books to the school that kids forget so they learn "responsibility") so I ask..."Mr. Eddy did you see Bobby sharing a book with someone and ask him where his was, then tell him in front of the class to come call me and have me get it?" He said yes.
I said "This is why I requested a set of books in my house. I am on deadline, I have a job just like you do....and Bobby is humilated enough about his disorganization without public tar and featherings." So yesterday, I get another call (my other deadline day) from the art teacher. She leaves voice mail that it is urgent she talk to me by day's end. I LEAVE work because Bobby has TWO back to back shrink/pyschiatrist appts. By the time I get from work to my house the art teacher has called twice more.
I call the school, she comes to the phone and says that Bobby lost one of the
shapes out of his art folder and his disorganization is simply defiance and
she wants me to do something about it....cont. next post
SUBJECT: round #2
continued
Date: 96-10-04 00:29:38 EDT
From: Writes4pay
Apparently she gave each child 15 construction shapes for art class for the year. Bobby lost one of the shapes (A star I think) and she was calling me at work THREE times within an hour to talk to me about it. When I picked Bobby up he said when he handed in his folder and she saw the star was not there she told him to find it. He and his friends searched the floor, desk etc and could not find it.
She shoved his folder back at him and said "You are disorganized Bobby and it's your fault not mine, you better get it together NOW or you won't get good grades in this class this year."
Bobby tried to explain...she told him to sit down and be quiet. Well I talked to Bobby about attitude and respect and not rolling his eyes again.....then I went to the art room today and was rude to her but in private. I told her she was to stop yelling at him about disorganization in front of the class.
Now today......I get a call from the special services coordinator (the one who got us the books) she told me the school principal called her and asked that she be in attendance tommorrow at the conference I set up with Mr. Eddy. Mr Eddy told me he is uncomfortable at Mteams, "feels like an inquisition" and asked me if I could conference with him for things. I said yes, and asked for one to get some modifications in assignment length.....Apparently the principal is setting up an ambush and plans to have several school board people at this conference. The coordinator suggested I call Bobby's shrink and tell him what they are going to do (thank Goodness she tipped me off). The shrink said he will be there with "bells on". The principal is mad I went above her to get the books. She thinks by having all these people at the "conference" I will go back to being quiet and submissive. I saw her this morning and she NEVER said word one about being at the conference OR having anyone else there..... I feel like I am playing Stratego....and have moved my "troops" when I saw the enemy "advancing".....
Wish me luck tommorrow. Candy
SUBJECT: Re:round #2 continued
Date: 96-10-04 08:21:47 EDT
From: Ratatat
<<I feel like I am playing Stratego....and have moved my "troops" when I saw
the enemy "advancing".....>>
Candy,
This school is just unreal. Ever heard of what I call "malicious obediance." That's what this sounds like. Refresh my memory, from your Mteam meeting, did you walk away with a formal IEP? Or, just an agreed to list of accommodations? I think it is utterly important that you have a formal "written" plan that is protected by Section 504 or IDEA. With your son's multiple disabilities he would qualify in a nano-second for Other Health Impaired under IDEA, and certainly under Section 504. If the schools mess with written plans under these laws, they are messing with the feds - and you end up with lots of recourse to hold them accountable. This is a public school, right?
SUBJECT: stratego continues
Date: 96-10-05 01:25:29 EDT
From: Writes4pay
Well today I went to the school. The "panel" was there. I was there and the shrink was 3 minutes late. The principal and teacher smiled and said we had to start without him. By the time he came in (3 minutes later) they were telling me WHY Bobby should not have assignment modifications etc etc. I ignored them completely and turned my attention to the special services coordinator (who was there at principal's request)
I said:
" I have done an incredible amount of research over the last six months on all of Bobby disorders. I have him in private therapy, AND group therapy. I am in a parent support group. The IEP modifications I am requesting are standard and reasonable. They are being provided for children in this school (though grudgingly) that have ONE disorder. Bobby has ADD, Tourette's, TWO LD's and a gifted IQ. The only subjects I am asking for assignment length modifications in are the two subjects he is LD in..........please explain to me why we are even having this debate."
I walked out five minutes later with EVERY little thing I asked for. (And the crowd went wild.....hee....hee.)
The shrink was as always great! He asked immediately why the IEP decisions we agreed on two weeks ago have not yet been implemented. I went back to have lunch with Bobby at noon and he said the teacher had implemented EVERY single suggestion before lunchtime.The teacher was VERY defensive. I kept telling him that Bobby landed in his class with a 5 year history and in no way do I blame him or expect him to fix it....however he is not to write on the board that Bobby only has to half of each assignment. (this is what happened to the last boy who was modified in this class).
Bobby will (at my request) complete as much as he can (He will get a grade for completing half...and extra credit for completing more). As the meds get adjusted and things settle down we will increase the expected output with Mteams every 4 weeks (which was the prinicpal's request) to adjust as needed. And by Xmas he should be up and running full speed. I said at the Mteam...."My son has been running down a hill at faster and faster speeds for 5 years. I am asking for modifications to slow him down before he trips falls and tumbles because of the breakneck speed he has built up, Once he is walking again I will encourage him to speed up at his own pace until he is running right along side the class."
Candy
SUBJECT: re:update on meds Bobby
Date: 96-10-05 01:37:40 EDT
From: Writes4pay
Ratatatat.....Bobby has had an IEP since third grade (gifted IQ which in Tennessee qualifies him as special ed) it means he goes to a gifted class 30 minutes a day, four days per week.
I had him recertified Gifted/ADD(other health impaired/LD two weeks ago) The good news is the school board personnel involved with special education know I am in the middle of writing a LENGTHY story for my paper about special ed in our county...PLUS the special ed coordinator dates my former news editor.
The bad news is....Bobby began a Ritilan trial yesterday morning (with the Tenex for Tourettes) He took one half of a dose and the tourette ticks returned immediately. We are continuing the trial for one week but the shrink said if the ticks returned that fast on the first one half dose he took....it looks like we are gonna have to give up the hope of a stimulant/tourette drug combo.
Bobby had an audition for a commercial last nite.......he was so excited when we left he could hardly breath. Apparently when the kids that were auditioned were leaving the head casting director winked at him and said "Hang in there kid, you are good, and you are incredibly funny.I like you." To Bobby it was like being told by God before death he will go to heaven.....he is still floating on cloud nine.
He said "I didn't get this one mom , but he NOTICED me and it was only the second audition I ever went to in my life, and I was up against kids that had 20 commercials on their resumes....he noticed me out of everyone and that means he will remember me.....I'm hooked. Tell Jimmi (the agent) to send me every day. "
Candy (already picking out her dress for the Oscars (grin)
SUBJECT: Re:re:update on meds Bobby
Date: 96-10-05 08:04:21 EDT
From: Ratatat
<<Bobby has had an IEP since third grade (gifted IQ which in Tennessee qualifies him as special ed) it means he goes to a gifted class 30 minutes a day, four days per week.
I had him recertified Gifted/ADD(other health impaired/LD two weeks ago)>>
Good. I'll rest easier now knowing this.
I continue to be dazzled by what and how you can handle all that has been tossed your way; and how you have been able to show and encourage your child to understand and gain somewhat of a philisophical approach to all that he must cope with. YOU are truly an incredible person.
I don't know if you've heard about, or had time to get a copy of Taming the Dragons: Real Help for Real School Problems by Susan Setley yet. It's got comprehensive explanations of learning disabilities and ADD along with very easy to understand and use "tips and tricks" to help kids overcome their stuggles in just about all areas of learning. It just might be the answer for Bobby's teacher who is feeling overwhelmed. Though designed for parents, it's been the regular classroom teachers who have latched onto the helpful, constructive and concrete information in this book. It's about $23 and you can order a copy directly from the publisher, Startfish Publishing at 314-367-9611.
There is another book that is quite good, similar but different to Taming the Dragons. (I like Taming better). It's Teaching the Tiger - A Handbook for Individuals Involved in the Education of Students with Attention Deficit Disorder, Tourette Syndrome or Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder by Marilyn Dornbush and Sheryl Pruitt, Hope Press. It's about $35 and can be ordered from Hope at: 1-800-321-4039.
Maybe a couple of early Christmas presents to the school's professional library would be in order?
SUBJECT: Re:re:update on meds Bobby
Date: 96-10-05 08:08:42 EDT
From: Ratatat
<<Bobby began a Ritilan trial yesterday morning (with the Tenex for
Tourettes) He took one half of a dose and the tourette ticks returned
immediately. We are continuing the trial for one week but the shrink said if
the ticks returned that fast on the first one half dose he took....it looks
like we are gonna have to give up the hope of a stimulant/tourette drug
combo.>>
Durn. I'm keeping my fingers crossed that this will work out to the best for your remarkable son (soon to be Oscar-winning actor). Has your psychiatrist looked into Adderall? Dr. Robert Hunt at the University of Vanderbilt has recently completed some clinical studies on this stimulant medication. I only mention it because one friend of mine started her son on Adderall after trials of Ritalin and Dexadrine. He had one mild tic which was always evident with the Rit and Dex, but disappeared on the Adderall. Perhaps your doc could find out about this possibility. Here's the phone number of the manufacturer for him to call if he wants: Richwood Phamaceuticals 1-800-536-7676.
Keep us updated, please. I feel like I know you and your child pretty well by now! And, I care.
SUBJECT: re:meds update
Date: 96-10-05 15:13:23 EDT
From: Writes4pay
<<I continue to be dazzled by what and how you can handle all that has been tossed your way; >> Thanks.....it's a matter of having no choice. (grin). A couple of years ago a "cycle" of events started and I think we must be nearing the end of the phase soon.
My younger brother died (long and painful death by AIDS) one year later my mother (who was my best friend) died and I thought I would go crazy.....until God threw me a wake up call that focused my attention elsewhere. Seven months after my mom died Bobby was diagnosed with Pituitary Dwarfism, two months later I developed a heart problem, several months later Bobby was diagnosed with ADD and LD's, one month later we discovered OCD and Tourettes were also rearing their ugly little heads.
It occurred to me last week that when my brother and mother died, (leaving me 'n' Bobby basically alone in the world) I felt like I had been hit by a truck on the highway and when I tried to stand again another truck came along. I didn't have the energy to try and stand again. But when all Bobby's stuff cropped up I put I discovered stamina and strength I never knew I had (And I am pretty well known for my optimism and perseverence)......Now we are cruising along just like before my family died. I think that saying God moves in strange ways was illustrated in my life. (grin) Bobby is a happy little guy who happens to have some uninvited frineds (disorders) in his life. We ignore them when we can, and work with them when we have too......
Candy
SUBJECT: Re:re:meds update
Date: 96-10-05 22:42:07 EDT
From: Ratatat
<<Thanks.....it's a matter of having no choice. (grin).>.
Choice, or no choice. I'm amazed at your abilities and approach to handling what's been handed to you. You are one remarkable woman. You should be extraordinarily proud of yourself. I think you are quite amazing. What a role model for other's who have read how you have managed all you have managed. Brava.
SUBJECT: Re:stratego continues
Date: 96-10-05 22:49:50 EDT
From: SusanS29
"As the meds get adjusted and things settle down we will increase the expected output with Mteams every 4 weeks (which was the prinicpal's request) to adjust as needed. And by Xmas he should be up and running full speed."
I hope you will keed in mind that even with optimal meds and interventions in the classroom, he will still be a child with multiple difficulties. It is quite possible that he won't be up to "full speed" for work output by Christmas. He may always need to do at least a little less than children without his hurdles to face.
If that's how it is, the school must accept that.
SUBJECT: re:full speed
Date: 96-10-06 00:39:27 EDT
From: Writes4pay
<< He may always need to do at least a little less than children without his hurdles to face.>> Okay...I confess. I have a hard time doing fifth grade math and I am 39 years old.....(of course that is why we have calculators right?)(grin) Bobby is LD in math calculation but not math reasoning (which I am very thankful for!) In fact almost every night lately he gets out of bed and comes to ask me math questions.
Yesterday's question was: "Mom please explain square roots to me." I asked if they were doing them in school and he said no, he had heard the term somewhere and had been laying in bed trying to figure them out himself. The night before he asked me to explain Why .8 and .80 are the same thing......this is what he thinks about in bed at night. Candy (Who is praying that 3 is the square root of 9...and 4 is the square root of 16 etc etc...did I get the right theory with the right terminology?(grin)
SUBJECT: re:susanS29
Date: 96-10-06 00:44:17 EDT
From: Writes4pay
Oh yeah.....I am keeping in mind the possibility he may always need modifications. I am going to let Bobby be the deciding vote if they ever get lifted. He did not want modifications, he fought them for a long time but finally got tired of feeling like he was "stupid" in math. I know that if he tells me he still needs them he does and I will not allow them to be taken away from him. Bobby's personal goal is to "get it" as quickly as the rest of the class does.....and if there is any way possible for him to do that he will. If not.....he will be honest with me about it and we will keep them in place.
Candy (who is glad she writes for a living. If we had to depend on my math skills we would be living on the street(grin)
SUBJECT: re:ratatatat
Date: 96-10-06 00:55:18 EDT
From: Writes4pay
<< Brava.>>
To all of us.....each of us with special children ....IMHO(BWG) Thanks for the Adderall suggestion. I will bring it up Tuesday with the shrink. They also might try upping his Tenex against the ticks..... Bobby is fascinated with money. For a kid with a math LD that strikes me as unusual (but par for the course with him I guess(g). FOr instance, he hauled in all the books the school board provided and asked me what each was worth ....I said about42 bucks. He immediately set about figuring up how many dollars the school had to part with to provide the books (they are brand new).
He is always hearing what a certain job pays...(.for instance $12) an hour and trying to figure in his head how much that is a month, and how much a year.
In grocery stores he takes his own cart and half of my list and whips up and down the aisles searching for the "best value" for our money. While standing in line he explains to me how he chose each item, why, and how much we saved.
I haven't figured out if this is:
a math interest,
a math obsession (OCD)
a tourette tick
a fear we are going broke (grin)
But its interesting to watch. He also seems to do this with pounds, and ounces but not to the extent he does it with money. Candy (who spends it as fast as she makes it and has no time to enjoy it(smile)
SUBJECT: Re:re:full speed
Date: 96-10-06 10:07:36 EDT
From: GeorgiaC4
**Candy (Who is praying that 3 is the square root of 9...and 4 is the square
root of 16 etc etc...did I get the right theory with the right
terminology?(grin)**
You sure did Candy ! : ) A square root is a factor of a number that, when squared, equals the number. Perhaps with his math reasoning stronger than his calculation, a chart or grid showing the relationship between squared numbers (multiplication) 3^2 = 9 and squared roots (division), squared root of 9 = 3 would be benificial. Once he has the squares reasoned out cubes will be a snap!
SUBJECT: Re:re:ratatatat
Date: 96-10-06 10:20:51 EDT
From: GeorgiaC4
**I haven't figured out if this is:
a math interest,
a math obsession (OCD)
a tourette tick
a fear we are going broke (grin)**
Candy, I found your post to be rather interesting .....Bobby sounds like me! I would venture to say it is a math interest and this is the part that helps make his reasoning skills so strong.
Georgia (who likes math because if it's right...it's RIGHT....and NO ONES opinion can change it!)
SUBJECT: re:square roots
Date: 96-10-06 11:49:10 EDT
From: Writes4pay
<<.did I get the right theory with the right terminology?You sure did Candy
!>>
Whoooshhhh! (That's just me breating a sigh of relief. :-) When he asked me that I said "Bobby, I don't have the faintest idea. I know I learned them once but I forgot it all......" Then from the dark black hole of my childhood memories it hit me and a little voice in my head said "3 is the square root of 9". Boy was I lucky! :-)
I think you are right about his math interest. When he was about 9 months old he tried to stuff a handful of green beans in my mouth. I absentmindedly said "One at a time Bobby." He put them down, picked up one, carefully examined it and then offered it to me. My dad freaked out (he is an engineer) and said Bobby was already understanding math reasoning. Just for fun a little while later he asked Bobby to hand him two of his plastic key rings. Bobby shoved his little fist into the pile of key rings and picked out two then offered them proudly to my father.
Of course the more he displayed this ability the more my dad declared Bobby a math genius. (grin) It became a real game when Bobby was about 18 months old and dad could tell him to look at five pennies, leave three there and hand him what was left and Bobby would snatch up two in a wink. Now of course my dad is in denial about any Math LD. He insists that when Bobby gets out of elementary math and into the challenging stuff he will show his genius and make everybody eat their words.
Candy (of course my dad is not around at night to watch Bobby struggle just to carry and borrow in simple addition and subtraction problems on paper)
SUBJECT: Re:My first grader can't rea
Date: 96-10-06 15:33:51 EDT
From: Wheels2082
It's quite possible that confusion over letters in getting them mixed up.
Look for a pattern in the mixed out patterns and use some clay to form them.
It might do the trick.
Wheels2082
SUBJECT: Re:re:full speed
Date: 96-10-06 21:48:54 EDT
From: SusanS29
"Candy (Who is praying that 3 is the square root of 9...and 4 is the square root of 16 etc etc...did I get the right theory with the right terminology?(grin)"
Yes, you did, Candy.
Here's your $4.
Now-for $16 explain why anyone needs to know this (grin).
Just kidding. I'm math impaired myself, so I get to throw an occasional dig toward math.
SUBJECT: Re:re:ratatatat
Date: 96-10-06 21:50:57 EDT
From: SusanS29
"vBobby is fascinated with money. For a kid with a math LD that strikes me as unusual (but par for the course with him I guess(g)."
Aren't we all fascinated with money?
I have used that to help students. One time I had a student who for the life of him couldn't learn to count. I made all sorts of clever materials, and none of them work.
Then my teaching assistant (who had no background in education but a lot of common sense) went to every teacher on the floor and gathered all the pennies he could.
He slapped 'em on the table and said "THERE, Andy. When you can count them, they're yours."
It took Andy three weeks, but he learned.
SUBJECT: Re:re:full speed
Date: 96-10-06 21:51:46 EDT
From: SusanS29
" Perhaps with his math reasoning stronger than his calculation..."
This is in fact fairly common and would describe ... Einstein.
SUBJECT: re:$16
question
Date: 96-10-06 23:44:35 EDT
From: Writes4pay
<< for $16 explain why anyone needs to know this (grin).>>
Well......ah heck, I didn't need $16 anyway. :-) One thing Bobby really likes about his teacher is that he tells the class point blank when they are learning something they will never need again but have to learn it to do well on the achievment tests...
Candy
SUBJECT: re:money
Date: 96-10-06 23:46:53 EDT
From: Writes4pay
<<When you can count them, they're yours.">>
Oh to have your assistant as my payroll supervisor. (grin) I can count real high if I want too.
Candy
SUBJECT: re:Einstein
Date: 96-10-06 23:51:35 EDT
From: Writes4pay
<<This is in fact fairly common and would describe ... Einstein.>> During second grade Bobby attended a private (very expensive) school where they were very proud of their Saxon Math program. The teacher told me several times that Bobby would disappear during math class and they would find him under a table in the back of the class reading an encyclopedia.....and he always had it turned to Einstein. Looking back I think he was afraid of Saxon....but was CONSTANTLY being told how smart he was cause he scored post high school level in SAT's and he "escaped" under the table with a good book about another misunderstood "smart" person.
ALl I remember is how Bobby went on and on and on about Einstein, and his hard time in school and the fact he always had the messiest hair Bobby had ever seen. :-)
Candy
SUBJECT: Desperate Mom
Date: 96-10-09 17:47:30 EDT
From: Bushokie
I think we found the light at the end of the tunnel. After meeting with the school pyscho, thought that we were facing a brick wall. She reluctantly agreed to do an "educational evaluation" on Matt. The nurse at the ped's office said that she thought that he "might be borderline ADD". But that she didn't really think that he needed anything but "anger management" classes. The brick walls were just getting thicker. I found a child pyschologist who is supposed to specialize in ADD/ADHD. We had our first meeting with her this A.M. She agreed with me that the school pyscho should have made arrangements to do whatever testing is necessary while Matt is out of school for his three weeks of off track time instead of pulling him out of class on his first day back. She didn't like this at all. She doesn't want him being embarrassed by being singled out in front of his classmates. She immediately got me to sign a release so that she can call the school. His other therapist never did this. She said that it sounds to her like she needs to go to the school and have an "educational meeting with the principal, pyscho and his teachers". She wants him to be in a group to learn how do deal with being ADD. She also wants him to see and be evaluated by a pychiatrist to determine if he needs meds. He's been weaning himself off of Imipramine he's been taking for night time problems. So far his mood is better. I've been trying to tell the ped that the Imipramine was making him crazy but they just turned a deaf ear. Even at his ADD appt. the nurse just shrugged when we told her that we wanted to wean him off.
Anyway, this new pychologist sounds like she is going to help us. She didn't immediately say yes or no to the question of ADD. She wants to meet with him some more. In fact, he goes back on Monday. Like I said, there may actually be a light. Cross your fingers for us, mine are getting cramped.
SUBJECT: Re:Desperate Mom
Date: 96-10-09 19:39:22 EDT
From: SusanS29
"She said that it sounds to her like she needs to go to the school and have an "educational meeting with the principal, pyscho and his teachers"."
Oh, I think you have a gem. I'll be very surprised if the school doesn't listen to what she has to say. I've seen this kind of "outside expert" thing work well many times.
Fingers crossed!
SUBJECT: Desperate Mom
Date: 96-10-15 15:35:30 EDT
From: Bushokie
I could just scream! The school pyscho just called. She doesn't understand why I want more testing and evaluation that "the school had previously agreed to do" Well, maybe they agreed but I sure didn't. In fact I told them that I would be finding an outside, private pyschologist for Matt. They agreed that that would be a good idea. She was defensive and unfortunately I also became defensive and told her that I was offended when she said at the earlier meeting that "we'll test and evaluate Matt, but we're not going to find anything". The said that they only "label" kids LD when they are seriously behind in their school work, at least two years, and he's not really behind. Well maybe that's because we do four to six hours of homework every night. I was beginning to feel better, but now I can see that brick wall being built even higher. I just don't see how they can really evaluate Matt, when their attitude is that "he just has a bad attitude and needs to get over it so that he can learn to get along in school". "He's an angry child and anger has nothing to do with ADD". I think that I'll go scream now.
SUBJECT: Re:Desperate Mom
Date: 96-10-15 16:15:33 EDT
From: Wheels2082
TWO YEARS BEHIND! Tell them that is too late to start providing services to learning disabled students. Fight them over it. In regards to ADD identification, go to an outside source for testing. From the way the district is handling the situation, don't really trust them. Identification is the key to receiving services under federal law. They're avoiding the law by making the excuses. ADD is a genetic defect not environmentally caused.
Wheels2082
Special Education Advocate
Disclaimer wants a proper education for all students.
SUBJECT: Re:Desperate Mom
Date: 96-10-15 19:27:36 EDT
From: Bushokie
First we went to the pediatrician. The nurse who was in charge of the Connors forms said that he "might be borderline ADD, but not bad enough for meds." On our own, because of no cooperation from the peds office, we have done away with his imipramine. He wasn't taking it for ADD. I like my son again. He is the lovable person that I used to know. But..........His activity level has got me exhausted. Told his new private therapist this and she's making an appt. for another MD to evaluate him for meds. Said for me to keep him away from the imipramine. No problem there. I am meeting with the school pyscho tomorrow morning in the parking lot. Her idea. She said that she has papers for me to sign so that she can go ahead with the testing. She really seems to be fighting this and I'm having a hard time dealing with her. One of my biggest problems was her refusal to do this testing while Matt was out of school for three weeks. She said that it would have to wait until he goes back on the 22nd. I told her today that I don't want him missing classroom time and oral lessons because of this. She said sarcastically that she didn't understand what the problem was and if I insisted that she would see if she could find a schedule that would work but that he will be pulled out of class quite a bit. Where's my screaming room! I'll try to wear a smile tomorrow or at least no boxing gloves.
SUBJECT: Re:Desperate Mom
Date: 96-10-15 20:51:24 EDT
From: Ratatat
<< I am meeting with the school pyscho tomorrow morning in the parking lot.
Her idea. She said that she has papers for me to sign so that she can go
ahead with the testing. >>
THIS makes me very uncomfortable. Why would the school's psychologist need to meet with you in the parking lot to sign papers? Something is very wrong with this picture.
Have you ever spoken with the Director of Special Education in your district? I think it just might be time. I'm pretty sure that I would have refused to meet with a school staff member in a parking lot to sign papers that are so important and so much a part of the official function of that person's job. Weird. Very Weird.
SUBJECT: Re:Desperate Mom
Date: 96-10-15 23:02:36 EDT
From: LorBis
Cancel the appt. until she can meet you in the office. I wouldn't meet her in the parking lot-this is one psycho who is probably psycho!!
SUBJECT: Re:Desperate Mom
Date: 96-10-16 13:43:05 EDT
From: KevisB
Also, it sounds as if you need some support for yourself, as it must be very frustrating to deal with this alone. There may be parent support groups in your area. Check with the school district or with LDA (Learning Disabilities Association) or with the medical center in your area. As well as providing moral support, parent groups can be an invaluable source of information on how to deal with schools.
KevisB
SUBJECT: learning disability?
Date: 96-10-16 15:36:37 EDT
From: Bellmk
I am a second grade teacher. I have a child in my class who is extremely poor in her reading skills. She was retained last year so she is currently repeating second grade and still doing poorly. She cannot read many basic sight words, nor use phonetics to decode words. I have tried different approaches for her. Many times she cannot remember a word she read just a few lines before. She has been tested twice and does not qualify for any services. The tests indicate she is of average ability and achievement is at late first grade or beginning second grade. I am not satisfied with these findings. Basically they say to let her go and do the best she can. But she is consequently doing poorly in all academic areas. I am a reading specialist also and have done some research on her. However she fits the "textbook description" of a student with a reading learning disability. I have her see a remedial reading teacher an hour a week and a private tutor an hour a week. She does not reverse any letters or words either, so it does not seem like dyslexia. However I am still not happy and her parents are not either. Does anyone have any ideas of what this could be or any other tests that would help identify any reading problems that could help her get other services or are there any other loopholes that could help her get more help?
SUBJECT: Re:Desperate Mom
Date: 96-10-17 09:13:29 EDT
From: SusanS29
First of all, don't assume that just because a person has "School Psychologist" after her name she knows squat about ADD.
Second, unfortunately it's true-LD is reserved for children who test significantly behind (often there are other criteria as well). Brighter students who get a lot of help at home often don't get diagnosed when younger, even though they may well be later on. I've seen this myself, but the diagnostic team has to go by the state guidelines or they can lose both state and federal funding for special education.
If you can afford it, get an outside evaluation. Going in, ask for a plan that will end this nightly homework marathon. Make that your goal (you can't keep it up, and it will have a profoundly negative effect sooner or later if it isn't already). That won't keep them from finding out what's going on, but will give them a "rudder" for steering you toward good solutions.
SUBJECT: Re:Desperate Mom
Date: 96-10-17 09:16:06 EDT
From: SusanS29
"The nurse who was in charge of the Connors forms said that he "might be
borderline ADD, but not bad enough for meds." "
THE NURSE WHO WAS IN CHARGE OF THE CONNERS FORM???
NURSES now decide who will benefit from meds? Based on a FORM? Oh, dear.
Get a second opinion, and don't let a nurse call the shots this time. Make sure you have an MD who specialized in ADD.
This is how the testing works. They need the child in school, and the child will miss some time from class. I don't think it's reasonable to ask them to re-organize their testing methods because of this. He'll survive it, honest. Pick your battles. :)
SUBJECT: Re:Desperate Mom
Date: 96-10-17 09:19:38 EDT
From: SusanS29
"<< I am meeting with the school pyscho tomorrow morning in the parking lot.
Her idea. She said that she has papers for me to sign so that she can go
ahead with the testing. >>
THIS makes me very uncomfortable. Why would the school's psychologist need to meet with you in the parking lot to sign papers? Something is very wrong with this picture."
Lots of times these people travel from school to school. They don't always even have office space in every school they visit. I can see this being feasible, and in truth I don't see as much to be upset about as some do. The truth is that often the special ed staff can look at a child's history and say "It doesn't matter what we find perceptually, because he isn't far enough behind to meet state guidelines." These are frustrating facts for parents, but in some states it's that cut-and-dried-if he isn't behind grade level, it doesn't matter how smart he is or how much potential is untapped.
And ... in business, two busy people manage to arrange to meet on the parking lot for five minutes all the time.
The parking lot thing really doesn't bother me, and neither does leaving class for testing. Also it may be best to prepare the parent for the fact that "There's a good chance he won't be eligible for services."
SUBJECT: Re:learning disability?
Date: 96-10-17 09:21:34 EDT
From: SusanS29
"She does not reverse any letters or words either, so it does not seem like dyslexia. "
This is a myth, that this is a sign of dyslexia. Many children with tremendous reversals read very well. I raised one... she was always an outstanding reader.
She needs a multidisciplinary evaluation to find out what's interfering. My first guess would be a langauge disability, so make sure a complete language evaluation is included.
If you can't put this in motion, drop a "bug" in the parents' ear to do it.
SUBJECT: Re:Desperate Mom (Susan)
Date: 96-10-17 22:46:35 EDT
From: Wheels2082
<<<Make that your goal (you can't keep it up, and it will have a profoundly
negative effect sooner or later if it isn't already).>>>
No matter what happens without help of Special Education has an effect on a L.D. child's education. As a former L.D. student and current observer of the system, holding back services until 2 years behind doesn't benefit the child as a whole. They get bored and start hating themselves and school. Furthermore, it makes them more difficult because they know that they can't learn like the other kids.
Wheels2082
Special Education Advocate
SUBJECT: Re:Desperate Mom (Susan)
Date: 96-10-18 00:31:09 EDT
From: SusanS29
I agree, but I don't know what can be done about it. Federal and state laws dictate that our special education system for LD will be based on failure, not success.
SUBJECT: Re:Desperate Mom (Susan)
Date: 96-10-18 01:20:25 EDT
From: SaraPete
I've got to say folks, a child DOES NOT have to be two years behind to qualify for accomodations in school meet his specific and individual needs. This child could be a "504" situation, where he can qualify for accomodations in the classroom, without receiving special ed help. Some possible accomodations can be things like talking books and large print to supplement poor reading, preferential seating, etc. There is a great book that lists over 208 possible classroom dilema's with a minimum of at least 24 possible solutions to each behavior. This is called the Pre-Referral Intervention Manual. It's a spendy little item, but can be checked out of the library.
You need to know specifically what your child's individual issues are and there are several ways of defining that, without testing. Take the information you know about your own child and write down as much as you can think of about your childs habits, styles, needs. Think carefully about what interferes with his/her attention. Anyone want to go through an online course on how to do that? I'll walk you through it if you want. E-mail me. PS. No I don't charge anything. It's one mom to another.
SUBJECT: Re:Desperate
Mom (Susan)
Date: 96-10-19 01:40:56 EDT
From: KevisB
My son has never been behind grade level in anything but was defined as eligible for special education services because of the significant discrepancy between his ability and achievement level. My understanding from the state of California is that is how the state law reads, and has nothing to do with how far behind he is grade level. I kept hearing about the "two years behind" rule from all sorts of professionals, but thankfully I checked it out myself. I guess each state has its own rules.
KevisB
SUBJECT: Re:Desperate Mom (Susan)
Date: 96-10-19 11:56:12 EDT
From: SusanS29
"My son has never been behind grade level in anything but was defined as eligible for special education services because of the significant discrepancy between his ability and achievement level. My understanding from the state of California is that is how the state law reads, and has nothing to do with how far behind he is grade level."
I'm so glad to hear that! CA used to base special education eligibility strictly on how far behind the student was. It could take years and years for a child with just average potential to meet their guidelines.
Each state does have its own rules, and I'm glad this one was changed.
;)
SUBJECT: Re:Dyslexia? LD? ADD? Normal
Date: 96-10-20 22:41:38 EDT
From: Wheels2082
I haven't been properly diagnosed in my 27 years but definitely disabled.
Family and I have a few suspicions of my disability classification.
Dawn
SUBJECT: Re:Desperate Mom
Date: 96-10-26 10:47:42 EDT
From: RAEMY0984
Bushokie- I went through a lot of what you are dealing with with my now third grade son. I am convinced that he had a racist K teacher or one who was instructed to "search out and assess".It took me three years to get him out of SPED. I believe he was selected as part of an effort to increase funding quotas. Get outside help, And know that schools are very politically savvy places, and know how to play the funding system as well and better than welfare mothers. An unpopular view, I know, but be aware. I got lucky with a new SPED director who listened and advocated but I think she was a bit nervous to do so. Now I need help with class and race issues in my neighborhood. I am not a popular person, but my kids love and TRUST me. And there are quite a few people around my town who wish they hadn't stereotyped my family!!
SUBJECT: Unpopular Mom
Date: 96-10-26 21:02:07 EDT
From: Bushokie
Dear RAEMY0984,
You're unpopular?!? At my kids school in California, I was referred to by the entire staff, principal included, as "The Bitch Mother from Hell". I loved it. They certainly knew when I was on campus.
SUBJECT: Re:Unpopular Mom
Date: 96-10-27 14:25:09 EDT
From: SusanS29
It's sad when the adults in a schoo resort to name-calling, isn't it?
But our children have no one else but us to stand up for them.
And... (gasp) -we're all human, and we're all flawed. To schools who have this problem (name-calling when parents assert for their children) I say "DEAL WITH IT. GET A GRIP." If they don't want to deal with all types of people then they should get out of education.
Should parents be more tactful sometimes? Maybe. Maybe they've been raked over the coals one too many times by a teacher and are past their limit for tact.
That doesn't change the child's needs.
SUBJECT: Re:Unpopular Mom
Date: 96-10-28 00:54:07 EDT
From: Wheels2082
Keep up the good work. If you don't stick up for your kids, sometimes, in my humble opinion, the Special Education system will walk over you. This comes from experience.
SUBJECT: Re:ed major wants to know
Date: 96-10-29 00:24:47 EDT
From: Skibo11712
I am doing a research paper on the reactions of parents when their child is places into exceptional childrens services. If I could get some feedback to help me with my research if would be very helpful. Thank you for your time.
SUBJECT: Re:Dyslexia? LD? ADD? Normal
Date: 96-10-29 00:42:23 EDT
From: DLRSM
to: PLBARTS
This is my very first attempt at yakking on line. I hope you get this. I
live in southeastern MA and am the mother of a fourth grader who has dyslexia
and is mildly ADD. My son has known since kindergarten that something wasn't
right. He just couldn't do the work the teacher wanted him to do. He's been
tested every which way-through his school and at Mass General. Like all moms
I want to bore you to tears with telling you how bright he is. He has had an
IEP since the end of second grade.He leaves his regular classroom everyday to
work on reading with a spec. ed. teacher. At meeting his dad and I hear time
and time again how hard he works.. So what is my problem? That the school
system is just pushing him through. He is required to do the same work as
his fellow classmates but is graded on an easier curve. He brought home a
paper the other day..it was typed.. his review of a project he had just
completed. His review contained 69 words- 61 of the words were single
syllable, 8 were two syllable; 0 three or more syllable words.. It contained
31 spelling errors. Inearly flipped. Lots and lots of talk about "we all
learn differently" and" we, as educators, must teach to a child's strengths",
when in reality it's "let's just not expect too much from him".Or atleast
that's what I thinking. So tell me..How do I deal with this without being
labelled "Attila"..and most importantly..tell the names of great school
outside of Boston(south) that specialze in dylexia. Also, as an
afterthought, any opnions about Waldorf schools? Thanks
DLRSM
SUBJECT: Re:Mislabeling of Black and
Date: 96-11-07 20:32:42 EDT
From: BJ786
I am also doing a research report for sociology class on minorities in special education, particularly in the inner cities. I would like to know why more Black and Hispanics children are being referred to special education for behavioral problems than with learning disabilities? Granted most of the children in the inner cities are mainly drug-dependant and have, if anything sociological problems with their environment, yet it it is almost always mis-diagnosed as a behavior misfunction. When this is diagnosed correctly, why aren't the Education system and Teachers doing anything about it and do they have the background training to deal with these problems? I have this these question and so much more. Please feel free to E-Mail any help or responses. Thanks a million!!!!!!!!!!
SUBJECT: Re:Mislabeling of Black and
Date: 96-11-07 20:42:36 EDT
From: BJ786
P.S.
I also know it that a lot of Students that are labeled as special education tend to stay in special education classes through out their school years. Why is this happening? I believe every Black or Hispanic child have enough obstacles in their lifetime, without the label of "Special Ed", being attached to their name. Why are they being, in most cases, unjustly labeled? That's all I have to say! Thanks again for any information out there!
SUBJECT: Re: BJ786
Date: 96-11-07 20:51:01 EDT
From: Wheels2082
From my own personal experience as it almost happened to me, it could be the difference in background. My own disability had me almost placed in the mental retardation program which I was far from being it, and my best guess is that the teacher couldn't handle me.
What it could've been back then was differing backgrounds and preparation for kindergarten and first grade.
Wheels2082
White woman in late 20's
Special Educaiton Advocate
SUBJECT: Re: BJ786
Date: 96-11-07 20:58:20 EDT
From: BJ786
Wheels2082, Thank you very much for sharing your experience with me. I will definitely use your story in my paper. Again, thanks a million!!!!!!!!!!!!
SUBJECT: Re:Mislabeling of Black and
Date: 96-11-08 08:50:20 EDT
From: SusanS29
"I am also doing a research report for sociology class on minorities in special education, particularly in the inner cities. I would like to know why more Black and Hispanics children are being referred to special education for behavioral problems than with learning disabilities? "
In the state I'm in, the diagnostic criteria for learning disabilities and the diagnostic criteria for behavior disorders are tremendously different.
"Granted most of the children in the inner cities are mainly drug-dependant and have, if anything sociological problems with their environment, yet it it is almost always mis-diagnosed as a behavior misfunction."
Most of our urban children are drug-dependent? Surely you didn't really mean to say that? But here's the problem. If the result of a highly-disrupted life is a behavior problem, it's a behavior problem. The diagnosis of "behavior disordered" has nothing to do with possible causes. It simply involves evaluating behavior and ruling out other causes (LD, for instance.)
Of course a child can be both LD and BD but no competent school district would confuse the two. They're widely different problems. They present differently (dramatically so).
"When this is diagnosed correctly, why aren't the Education system and Teachers doing anything about it and do they have the background training to deal with these problems?"
Special education teachers aren't social workers and they aren't therapists. The teachers in programs for children with behavior disorders are trained to use the school setting as a tool to teach a child more appropriate behavior so the child can finish his or her education without being a disruptive factor for himself or others.
They don't have the goal of repairing emotional damage; they aren't competent to do that.
I could be wrong but I sense an underlying assumption here that LD and BD frequently get mixed up in diagnosis. Where I'm from that just doesn't happen. The diagnostic criteria are markedly different for the two sets of difficulties, and I just can't imagine it happening often enough to be singling any one group out for one classification over the other.
But in my state, the state department of education actually sends "auditors" who periodically go over diagnoses to make sure we're conforming to state definitions. So there's also a system of checks and balances. I believe that's required by federal special education law.
SUBJECT: Re:Mislabeling of
Black and
Date: 96-11-08 08:51:54 EDT
From: SusanS29
"Why are they being, in most cases, unjustly labeled?"
This is a sweeping generalization. I can't think of a single student of mine over all the years who didn't fit the label applied. That said, when the diagnosis is "behaviorally disordered" that's a tough problem to overcome, and not all students will overcome it.
SUBJECT: SusanS29
Date: 96-11-08 09:39:50 EDT
From: BJ786
Thank you for your input. But in the NY inner cities and according to friends, who are inner city Teachers, the problems of most are mainly pre-natal drug dependancy. They deal with mainly crack-babies, that are now school-age. I not labelling all students(Blacks and Hispanics) as Sp. Ed., but if the problem is a Behavioral Problem, why are the Teachers passing it off as BD or LD? That is the question. Also, Why aren't the student being evaluated for other "gifts" or problems, so that they can receive additional help to their normal education process. Also, the Teacher, who usually spends more time with the Student than most parents, should be trained to deal with a Behavior Problem, not BD. Emotional problems are emotional problems, and I know Teachers are not equipped to help those that have them.
According to sources, the problem is that the Board of Education mainly assign Teachers of another race to these schools and they do not know or care enough to learn of the background of the majority of the students and can not related to their social background. When school is finished, they are found going back to their families and homes, which are usually located outside of the city.
Because of Public attention on the Sp. Ed. System, it is now being stressed to limit the school's referrals to Sp. Ed. So, what happens when there is a child that really needs the help? More than often it will be overlooked. Unfortunately, all of this is a reality. It's been happening since I've been in public school. Most minority parents I speak to, who have sons, have been approached for their sons to be put into Sp. Ed.; Due to boredom in the class, which can be eleviated by more challenging work, or maybe a simple case of Dyslexia, which is the main problems, when they are caught.
Most parents do not care and let their child get fixated in this system, where it could just a simple problem. Recently, a young man, who had been in Sp. Ed all of his life was re-placed in the normal curriculum for High School. It was discovered that he had a talent for Art and was so focused on this talent, drawing in class all day, he was labeled as LD. He applied to the High School of Graphic Arts and was accepted. On the first day of school, the young man was not allowed to attend classes because the school accepted him, on the basis that he was in Sp. Ed. Now is that fair for him to have a label for the rest of his life because it was never investigated intensely enough to see what the focus was?
Susan, I sorry to disagree with you, but this is a reality. Why are the children that need that help (Drug-dependant, poor environments)may not receive it and the children that really don't have the problems are labeled for rest of their lives?
SUBJECT: Re:SusanS29
Date: 96-11-09 00:55:48 EDT
From: SusanS29
"But in the NY inner cities and according to friends, who are inner city Teachers, the problems of most are mainly pre-natal drug dependancy."
I guess... but it may be that they're overlooking students who should be diagnosed. They may be so busy putting out major fires (the horrendously troubled students) that they don't notice some of the others. That's an awful shame if that's so.
"if the problem is a Behavioral Problem, why are the Teachers passing it off as BD or LD? That is the question.
I guess I don't understand your labeling system (it can be so frustrating; each state has its own) -- where I am BD means behavioral problems. But a child with a behavioral problem can also have a learning disability. It's fairly common, in fact.
"Also, Why aren't the student being evaluated for other "gifts" or problems, so that they can receive additional help to their normal education process."
I'm hearing lots of assumptions here that if true violate federal law. Evaluations by law have to be multi-disciplinary, meaning that they look in all areas for problems.
"Also, the Teacher, who usually spends more time with the Student than most parents, should be trained to deal with a Behavior Problem, not BD. "
What do you mean by BD if not behavioral disorder?
"According to sources..."
Make sure your source doesn't have a hidden agenda which unconsciously controls the selection and interpretation of these situations. I'm not saying it's not true, just that it might not be true.
"Board of Education mainly assign Teachers of another race to these schools and they do not know or care enough to learn of the background of the majority of the students and can not related to their social background."
I guess I'm very lucky; I have known very few such insensitive teachers (I can think of only one in 20 years of doing support services for many schools in many areas-some mixed-race and some not).
"Why are the children that need that help (Drug-dependant, poor environments)may not receive it and the children that really don't have the problems are labeled for rest of their lives? "
I don't know what to say. This just hasn't been my experience.
SUBJECT: Re:SusanS29
Date: 96-11-09 01:20:24 EDT
From: Ratatat
<<Susan, I sorry to disagree with you, but this is a reality. Why are the
children that need that help (Drug-dependant, poor environments)may not
receive it and the children that really don't have the problems are labeled
for rest of their lives? >>
Good or bad, when Congress inacted IDEA their intent was to attempt to make the "playing field" more even for parents, and very clearly stated that they are equal partners in their child education with the schools. Though the schools have a lot of responsibility that are clearly spelled out in elaborate rules, timelines and regulations, the parents also have responsibilities that are spelled out. Ultimately, parents are in charge of their child'ren's educational care. They are supposed to be life long advocates. And schools, which can become mired and complacent do need parents to "jump start" the system with some frequency. When parents are not involved for whatever reason, the only way that the schools can effectivlely advocate for the children would be to take custody of the students who the school has decided are not in homes with fit parents.
I don't know about you, but I don't think I want any government agency to be in a position to make a move like that with ease. I know what you are saying about the lost children, but can you come up with an alternative that still protects the consitituional rights of individuals and the rights of families to privacy?
I can't. Short of a socialist government I can't envision a universal solution.
SUBJECT: Re:SusanS29
Date: 96-11-09 20:15:09 EDT
From: BJ786
Susan, I apologize, when I speak of the Behavorial problem, I'm not speaking of BD. It's just a way of stating a major disruption to the clasroom and attention-making on the students' part. The Teacher may know what the child's capable output, as far as learning is concerned, but cannot deal with behavor part of that student.
Again, I'm sorry that we have gotten our wires crossed.
SUBJECT: Re:SusanS29
Date: 96-11-09 23:18:25 EDT
From: MarHolland
<<Susan, I sorry to disagree with you, but this is a reality. Why are the
children that need that help (Drug-dependant, poor environments)may not
receive it and the children that really don't have the problems are labeled
for rest of their lives? >>
I think this is a fascinating discussion and extremely relavent to this particular board. I've sat in Spec. Educ. Admission, Review and Dismissal meetings and listened to a child's assessment being reviewed....only to find out that a child with an IQ of 75 can't receive services because she didn't score two standard deviations below that on her achievement testing. Or the times I listened to my principal, (when I taught in a classroom for students who were Emotionally Disturbed), tell me she had another 20 with much worse behavior that didn't qualify. ( This was a school pulling students from a poor urban area.) What do we do with the students that "fall through the cracks"? No child should expendable. I see this as a critical social issue for our entire country. I'm getting the address for BJ786 of a woman in our area, who has done extensive research on generational poverty. The information is shocking, yet made so much sense as I reflect on the social, pragmatic and language skills of some of my students. This population seems to me to be the unrecognized minority. Then you throw in special education assessment - take a look at groups used to standardize some of the assessments on which we rely. WOW! Pandora's box.
SUBJECT: Re:SusanS29
Date: 96-11-10 12:11:58 EDT
From: SusanS29
" What do we do with the students that "fall through the cracks"?"
But is it really true that a child with an IQ of 75 whose achievement level doesn't justify special ed is falling through the cracks?
Maybe this student has strengths that don't show up on an IQ test, and pushing the child into special education would really be a mistake.
To qualify for special education because of "low IQ" requires more than an IQ of a certain score precisely because IQ doesn't always tell the whole story.
SUBJECT: Re:SusanS29
Date: 96-11-10 20:09:54 EDT
From: MarHolland
<But is it really true that a child with an IQ of 75 whose achievement level
doesn't justify special ed is falling through the cracks?>
In this particular case, I think so... She would have to have achievement scores in the 50's to qualify. That puts her way below grade level....she's limping through 2nd grade( with a minimal support from home)....and quess what? She'll continue falling behind and hit that hard & high wall of third grade academics. They'll retest and....she'll qualify...after she's experienced years of failure. Gosh, I know there's not an easy answer and NO we shouldn't qualify on only IQ...but who helps that kid? I thought 504. I need to learn alot more about it, but other teachers tell me that 504 only ensures modifications. Our school is taking one of our 4 P.E. teachers out of the gym, part of the day, (without central admin. approval - but with parent approval) to tutor these kids in Math and Lang. Arts. It's not permanent or perhaps efficient, but it IS an attempt to be proactive.
SUBJECT: Re:SusanS29
Date: 96-11-10 23:40:56 EDT
From: DHeus18164
I've just read the last couple of entries on this topic, and agree that it is
all at once, facisnating, frustrating, and something I deal with on a daily
basis. I think children only "fall through the cracks" as much as we let
them. IDEA law and state criteria for services often lead educators to a)
rely on exceptional education to solve the child's "problem"
b) believe that there are no other options to help a child who does not
qualify for services
A previous message alluded to a teacher whose schedule was modified to help tutor students who need extra assistance. Why is that seen as something "radical?" The fact is, as IDEA stands today, we often get caught up in the unfairness of how the "grey area" (ie IQ's that prevent children from receiving services) children are slighted. It is a tragedy that there isn't a continuum of services available regardless of a child's ability or need. However, with reality being as it is, more creative solutions that come from the schools themselves, have to be attempted. If there is concern about a child who does not meet criteria, why not ask a special educator in the school if it is possible for he/she to integrate that child into a resource room/small group/tutoring session etc. It IS an option as long as the teacher believes it will not interfere with services provided to the special ed students. If eligible, Section 504 allows for classroom modifications. Peer tutoring. One on one help with an educational assistant. Parent volunteers to come into the classroom. Solutions like these call for something extra....time, creativity, school support. Why not write up an informal IEP for a student who doesn't qualify for services? Review it every year like a real one. How is the child progressing. What goals have we identified and what is being done to facilitate them.
Just a few random thoughts
SUBJECT: Re:SusanS29
Date: 96-11-11 23:54:54 EDT
From: SusanS29
"She'll continue falling behind and hit that hard & high wall of third grade academics. They'll retest and....she'll qualify...after she's experienced years of failure. "
That's how IDEA is written. It is based, unfortunately, on failure.
But she might not get that far behind. I've seen research suggesting that kids in this range do best in the regular classroom, and over time, achieve pretty much where they would be predicted to be.
I don't know that a child with an IQ Of 75 will qualify for a 504... some sort of disability has to be identified. Where I am, an IQ of 75 is classified in the low normal range, not retarded.
SUBJECT: Years of failure...
Date: 96-11-12 19:08:54 EDT
From: DHeus18164
The child does not necessarily have to experience "years of failure." Why not modify current assignments and instruction so they are at that child's grade level? If cognitive ability is under the range of "average" there's little chance that will change by the time he/she reaches 3rd grade anyway, making services a moot point {in my state a child has to have documented average cognitive ability before being eligible for a learning disability}. So..obviously the cleanest, easiest and most overused solution of special ed. is not a factor. I suppose I'm a strong proponent of coming up with alternative solutions other than exceptional education. Conceptionally, identified students for exceptional education....should be the exception. We're looking at populations that statistically speaking should be 5% to 10% at most. So naturally, any one school is going to have a far larger number of these "grey area" students who will not qualify based on the letter of the law. So...it is everyone's best interest for schools to develop action plans and interventions that target "grey" students.
SUBJECT: Re:Years of failure...
Date: 96-11-13 01:03:07 EDT
From: Lmazzola
Susan:
How is an IQ of 75 considered low average? Would this be on the WISC III or some other test? I've been told, and all of my children's evaluations, have stated that average is 90 - 110 on the WISC III, with low average being around the 90's. Anything below 90 is considered below average. Can you explain?
Lisa
SUBJECT: Re:Years of failure...
Date: 96-11-13 18:45:40 EDT
From: DHeus18164
Merely a matter of semantics. You ARE correct. Where I am, the area between average (i.e. a 90 on a WISC) and cognitively delayed (retarded or 70 and below) is referred to "low average" or "lower limits of the low average range" instead of below average.
SUBJECT: Re:Years of failure...
Date: 96-11-14 00:59:05 EDT
From: SusanS29
"Susan:
How is an IQ of 75 considered low average?"
Low average begins at 90 and goes down, I believe to the point that retardation is considered. In my state there's simply no way a child with an IQ of 75 would be considered retarded. I was taught that 90 - 110 is "average, so "in the nineties" by those guidelines would be average, not low average.
I base my statement on my experience as part of a diagnostic team. We neve would have called a child with an IQ of 75 retarded.
SUBJECT: Re:Years of
failure...
Date: 96-11-14 23:23:24 EDT
From: R u Niz
Where I come from and was trained, average on a Wisc is 85-115. Look at your standard deviations. The "grey area" is 70-80. Cognitive disability occurs below the IQ point of 69.
Kids do fall through the cracks. Nobody seems to care, but I'm fighting to help identify the bright kids who bust their butts and compensate with heavy doses of help at home, and are told that they are doing just fine with their "C" averages. The children who are receiving services in my class are what we used to consider the severe cases and the behavior disordered. Whatever happened to mild learning disabilities? I really have to fight to get these kids identified.
I'm sorry, but I don't want to hear one more person suggest that I serve non-identified special ed kids in my resource room. I'm doing without preps or breaks now and have willingly gone beyond the legal number of students on my caseload. If a parent wants this assistance for a child, that parent has a responsibility to identify the disability! It's not a stigma; it's a collection of very important rights.
And I had a great day today... Thanks for letting me sound off.
SUBJECT: Desperate Mom
Date: 96-11-15 18:14:32 EDT
From: Bushokie
I need a break! The school just finished Matt's evaluations this week, our meeting to discuss these is scheduled for Dec. 5 and Dad just got transfered to Portland, OR today. He has to be there in 30 days. Today, at school, Matt got into a screaming match with another child and then a TA, cussing both out, all over whether the other kid was out in a four square game. He wouldn't talk to dad on the phone, I was on the phone at home trying to call movers.
We tried ritalin last week, but 5mg. was knocking him out at school, and the rebound was outrageous. Two pyscholgists and the pychiatrist who prescribed the ritalin said that he definately is ADHD, the school is saying they still don't think so or the ritalin would have worked. I'm going crazy. Now we're going to have to start all over in a new district. Should I finish up with the current district and the IEP? Or should I just dig a big hole in the backyard and leave the little so and so here when we move? Right now I just want to cry but I don't think that I have time. I'll take suggestions, a shovel, anything you've got available.
SUBJECT: Re: Failure
Date: 96-11-15 19:16:55 EDT
From: MarHolland
<why not ask a special educator in the school if it is possible for he/she to
integrate that child into a resource room/small group/tutoring session etc.>
<Why not write up an informal IEP for a student who doesn't qualify for
services?>
In other words put a kid in spec. educ. without an eligibility. Little shakey....don't you think?
<If cognitive ability is under the range of "average" there's little chance that will change by the time he/she reaches 3rd grade anyway, making services a moot point > No, the IQ won't change much.... but those achievement scores will continue to drop. Eventually, she'll probably have 2 standard deviation discrepancy....and qualify as L.D.(in my state) But, she wasn't before?? Come on..We just had an inservice with a guy out of CA. He said that research indicates that a child's reading competency at mid 1st grade is a prediction of their eventual reading level..in other words if a kid has trouble reading at grade level by mid 1st, by 9th he'll still be below grade level. He went on to say that they don't qualify for services until, generally third/fourth grade, after significant failure. He pointed out that by then not only do they need to be taught...but untaught the ingrained poor habits. He also mentioned how much more cost effective early intervention and modified reading programs would be.
<alternative solutions other than exceptional education. > I think "alternative solutions" would have to be exceptional. However, they don't have to be spec. educ. My only problem with creative alternative solutions is that they are not mandated.
So, again...who will help this kid?
SUBJECT: Re:Desperate Mom
Date: 96-11-15 19:32:58 EDT
From: MarHolland
Dear Bush.,
When are you gonna get a break? Just 'cos the Ritalin didn't work doesn't mean that Matt's not ADHD! I think you ought to get as much settled with the current district and forward all to the new district. If you are not sure where Matt will be in school..Bring copies of EVERYTHING with you to enroll him in his new school. They should honor the IEP for at least a 30 day assessment period (including modifications). I think it would save alot of starting over to get as much as possible done now.
Good Luck!
SUBJECT: Re:Desperate Mom
Date: 96-11-15 20:11:32 EDT
From: R u Niz
Hey Bush-
Marholland is right on the money. Finish the evaluation and get that IEP! Why go through the evaluation all over again. Some tests should not be repeated in close time frames-and why give another district another 60 days?
When Ritalin works it is considered part of an ADD diagnosis, but it doesn't work for all kids who are ADD.
Good luck with the move-and bring the little so and so. Believe it or not, you'd miss him.
SUBJECT: re: Matt
Date: 96-11-16 00:01:20 EDT
From: Writes4pay
<<Or should I just dig a big hole in the backyard and leave the little so and so here when we move?>> If he has ADHD it's not his fault....and he needs your support. The school is wrong to say if it was ADHD the Ritilan would have worked. My son is on Ritilan and it is working miracles! However when the doc switched him to Adderall a "better" ADD med guess what? It did nothing for him at all!!! The ADD came back so strongly the teacher asked me if I had stopped giving my son meds for the last few days. Every med does not work on every child (which is why there are so many to try) do not give up.....ignore the school (for now) and continue working with the docs to find a med that does work for your guy. Meds are not the only answer, ADD takes a combo of meds, home implementations, and school interventions (Hey Susan.....aintcha' proud, I'm learning my stuff aren't I? (BWG)
....he does not need a dirt hole.....but as a mom of an ADDer I can understand your frustration. Good luck!
Candy
SUBJECT: Re:Desperate Mom
Date: 96-11-16 00:39:26 EDT
From: Ratatat
<<Two pyscholgists and the pychiatrist who prescribed the ritalin said that
he definately is ADHD, the school is saying they still don't think so or the
ritalin would have worked. >>
Only after these teachers have finished their medical training with a residency in child psychiatry would I give their opinion (as opposed to the people who have the training) any credence. There are a variety of ways that ADD manifests, and a variety of ways it responds to medications (there are four stimulant medications). Not ALL kids respond to Ritalin the same way. Those teachers should keep quiet on medical opinions.
There is a way to "transfer" IEPs. I'm not with my files right now so I can't give you the reference. Check in the library right here in the Special Education Forum and download the file "What do the laws say?" It could well be covered in there. Also, this file lists the phone number of NICHY which is a resource FULL of free information on such things.
SUBJECT: Re:Desperate Mom
(Bushokie)
Date: 96-11-16 16:17:13 EDT
From: Wheels2082
Have you looked into other medications for his disability? When one medication doesn't work maybe another might do the trick.Check into it right away since probably the stress is creating a larger problem for him. When he transfers schools, make sure you keep a copy of his IEP at his previous school. The new school will have a foundation to work with him otherwise its guess work. Also, as soon as possible, make sure to have a meeting with his new teachers. It could make a difference in making it work in his new school.
Dawn (Wheels2082)
Online Course Instructor
Special Education Advocate
SUBJECT: Re:Dyslexia? LD? ADD? Normal
Date: 96-11-16 16:29:33 EDT
From: Saningclan
Dear Mom;
Bravo! for being so finely tuned to your child. Please continue to observe what type of learner you have. Familiarize yourself with Gardner's 7 learning styles and take time to discover the learning style of your child. The rest may be developmental, and your child will blossom in his own time - have fun with learning- don't make it a chore.Make certain that you and his teachers develop close communications and modify so your child does not become overwhelmed. Good luck!
SUBJECT: Re:Desperate Mom
Date: 96-11-18 14:32:35 EDT
From: SusanS29
"Two pyscholgists and the pychiatrist who prescribed the ritalin said that he definately is ADHD, the school is saying they still don't think so or the ritalin would have worked. "
The school is badly mistaken. Get your medical advice from MD's. ;)
"Should I finish up with the current district and the IEP?"
Yes. They did the testing and know him.
"Or should I just dig a big hole in the backyard and leave the little so and so here when we move?"
That's been tried. Research shows that it doesn't help (very big smile).
They need to have a neutral place he can go to calm down when he's blowing it, without punishments. He won't be there much longer, and they're not going to change him in that time.
Sometimes it's difficult to get a child's meds adjusted properly. This may be a "rage" reaction your child had, and that may influence what meds will be used. So tell the doctor.
Tell the doctor the experts on line on AOL all say that a significant minority of children who truly have ADHD don't respond or respond negatively to Ritalin.
SUBJECT: Re: Failure
Date: 96-11-18 14:35:42 EDT
From: SusanS29
" He said that research indicates that a child's reading competency at mid 1st grade is a prediction of their eventual reading level..in other words if a kid has trouble reading at grade level by mid 1st, by 9th he'll still be below grade level. "
That kind of research is frought with problems. How many students? How many approaches? How many diagnoses? How many different school districts?
My child was a non-reader at mid-first, and is above both grade level and where she would predict.
My husband didn't learn to read until end of third grade, but he ended up with a Ph.D. in Chemistry. To do that he had to pass written tests not only in chemistry but in German and French (two languages required for many Ph.D.'s, including his).
The "failure" model is dictated by federal law. I don't see that changing any time soon, but I think it's pretty chuckle-headed to call a child LD unless there's a perceptual cause for the difficulties.
SUBJECT: Re:re: Matt
Date: 96-11-18 14:37:07 EDT
From: SusanS29
"... continue working with the docs to find a med that does work for your guy. Meds are not the only answer, ADD takes a combo of meds, home implementations, and school interventions (Hey Susan.....aintcha' proud, I'm learning my stuff aren't I? (BWG)"
OHHHH you're so good... ;)
SUBJECT: Re:Desperate Mom
Date: 96-11-18 14:38:49 EDT
From: SusanS29
"There is a way to "transfer" IEPs. I'm not with my files right now so I can't give you the reference."
If you're moving within state (and I believe you are right?) the diagnosis, placement and IEP must be honored at the new school.
However they are entitled to re-write the IEP so that it conforms with their
way of doing it as long as it still meets federal law, state law *and your
child's needs.*
They can't, for instance, say "In our opinion he isn't LD" or "In our opinion he doesn't need support in (name the subject).
SUBJECT: Re:Dyslexia?
LD?/Gardner???
Date: 96-11-18 15:05:20 EDT
From: PJOEC99
Could you please give me a little more information on "Gardner's 7 Learning Styles" I would like to read up on them but don't know where to look. Our town is really small and I would have to order info. from another towns libraries. Thanks Alot!!
SUBJECT: Re:Dyslexia? LD?/Gardner???
Date: 96-11-18 17:18:58 EDT
From: Ratatat
Howard Gardner has written several books on his theory of multiple intelligences. One of my favorites is "The Unschooled Mind."
SUBJECT: #1
Transferring IEPs
Date: 96-11-18 17:37:29 EDT
From: Ratatat
<<Now we're going to have to start all over in a new district. Should I
finish up with the current district and the IEP? Or should I just dig a big
hole in the backyard and leave the little so and so here when we move? >>
I searched the web for a fact sheet I knew I'd seen! Here is it is from the
LDA. If you want their web site address it is: http://www.ldanatl.org/
LDA Advocacy Memo: For Your Information #2-96
Obligations of States and School Districts to Students with Disabilities and
Their Parents in Interstate Transfer Situations
Margaret Carr, Advocacy Committee. NLDA
Thomas Hehir, Director, Office of Special Education Programs (OSEP), December 6, 1995, in response to a number of requests for clarification, addressed the responsibilities of states and school districts to students with learning disabilities when they transfer from one state to another. Under Part B of the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act (IDEA) a school district must make available a free appropriate public education (FAPE) to all resident children with specified disabilities in the mandated age-ranges and must ensure both the children and their parents have the rights and protections guaranteed by Part B of IDEA (20 USC º1412(2) (5). FAPE comprises an appropriate education program designed for each individual student according to both Part B and education standards of the state of residence. Each state, under 34 CFR º300.600, must supervise and ensure programs in the state providing education services to students with disabilities meet both federal and state standards.
When a student moves from one state to another, the receiving school district must first determine whether it will adopt the student's most recent evaluation and individual education plan (IEP). Since the evaluation and IEP from the sending state were based partially on the education standards and eligibility criteria of the sending state, the student's evaluation and IEP may not be consistent with the education standards of the receiving state. If the receiving district determines that the previous evaluation complies with both state law and Part B of IDEA, it may adopt the evaluation and provide parental notice in accordance with 34 CFR º300.504(a).
The receiving district must also examine the student's IEP to determine compliance with state law and Part B of IDEA. If the receiving district determines that the IEP is appropriate and can be implemented, no IEP meeting need be held if the parent is satisfied with the current IEP (Appendix C to 34 CFR Part 300 (question 6)). If, however, either the parent of school district is dissatisfied with the existing IEP, and IEP meeting must be held no later than thirty (30) calendar days after the receiving school districts accepts the eligibility determination and evaluation of the previous school district.
If the receiving school district does not accept the previous evaluation, the district must evaluate the student without due delay and provide proper parental notice under 34 CFR º300.128, º300.220 and º300.504(a). The new evaluation must be treated as a preplacement evaluation under 34 CFR º300.531. The receiving district must obtain parental consent (34 CFR º300.504(b)(1)(i)). Special education services may be provided to the student during the evaluation process if parents and the district can agree on an interim IEP. If there is disagreement, however, the student will be placed in regular education. Once the receiving district completes its assessment, an IEP meeting must be held no later than thirty (30) calendar days after the date of eligibility determination (34 CFR º300.343(c)). At the meeting an appropriate IEP should be developed and adopted to address the unique education needs of the student.
continued next.....
SUBJECT: #2 Transferring IEPs
Date: 96-11-18 17:38:15 EDT
From: Ratatat
If the parents disagree with the new evaluation or proposed IEP, they may initiate an impartial due process hearing under 34 CFR º300.506. Pending the hearing the student may be placed in the program proposed by the receiving district, with the parents' consent, or in another placement on with both the parents and district agree. If agreement on an interim placement is not reached, the receiving district is not required to implement the interim IEP or to approximate services provided under the previous IEP. In such a situation the receiving district will place the student in the regular education program in accordance with 34 CFR º300.513(b).
SOURCE: Letter of Clarification from Thomas Hehir, Director, Office of
Special Education
Programs, dated December 6, 1995
The preceding informational material has been compiled from the sources cited and in no way constitutes legal advice.
Acronym List | Bulletins/FYI Index | LDA Home Page
SUBJECT: Desperate Mom
Date: 96-11-19 12:26:26 EDT
From: Bushokie
Yesterday, Matt had to "deal with the consequences" of his friday problem, (turns out the only "cuss" word was the "word of the month", dick. The vice-principal was in charge of his office time, she assigned him a full page report on what he did wrong friday and how he would and should have handled it differently. A full page! Matt was in tears, and I talked to the v-p, and asked her if she were aware that they had just completed testing to determine if he truly has a processing LD, and that his LD seems to be that he is blocked when it comes to getting his thoughts on paper? Her response was that she was aware and she didn't feel that he should be having a problem and that he was refusing to do the assignment. I told her that he had completed five sentences and that was great for him. Apparently, she relented on that part, but she also gave him a page of math to do that he had never had instruction for. She said that she explained it to him once and that should have been enough, he just refused to listen to her. I sat with him for ten minutes and explained how to do the problems, and wow! he finished them. An office clerk claimed she was "forced to physically restrain" Matt because he wouldn't sit still. Gee, the only chairs available for him to sit in were wheeled, swivel chairs. I can't imagine why he couldn't sit still, can you?
I sure hope Oregon has a better attitude. Of course, Matt has to have a better attutide, also. Maybe the Wellbutrin will help. He just started Sunday, and, so far things seem o.k. at home at least. He really beat himself up this weekend over the friday fiasco. He's had a stomach ache for the last two weeks and doesn't want to go to school. I'm sure the move is part of it, but we only found out about it four days ago.
SUBJECT: Re:Desperate
Mom
Date: 96-11-19 23:21:27 EDT
From: Ratatat
<<He really beat himself up this weekend over the friday fiasco. He's had a stomach ache for the last two weeks and doesn't want to go to school. >.
Kids don't have these stomach aches for no reason. Maybe it's time for a stay-at-home mental health day with mom?
SUBJECT: Re:Desperate Mom
Date: 96-11-20 10:25:59 EDT
From: SusanS29
"I can't imagine why he couldn't sit still, can you?"
I think you're really lucky to be moving.
SUBJECT: Re:Desperate Mom
Date: 96-11-24 11:43:55 EDT
From: ShelleyHL
Have all of the school records transfered to the new school ASAP. If you
know where you are moving it will help the new school to have some advanced
notice so that they can make a good classroom placement for your child, as
well as prepare to implement the goals of the IEP. The important piece to
that IEP is the needs section which contains the specific goals for your
child. The new school will be responsible for implimenting those goals (and
they should work with you to define how that will take place). So, yes,
finish that IEP process as those folks know your child. Also, get a good
medical reference from your child's doctor for a physician in the new area
who can take over where HE/SHE left off with regard to the meds. This is an
important piece too. ShelleyHL
SUBJECT: I KNOW THE TRUTH
Date: 96-12-12 06:35:10 EDT
From: TRTY
I KNOW THAT I AM SP. ED BUT NO ONE REALIZE THAT IT TAKES MORE NO TEACH US(METIRAL WISE)MY CLASS AT SCHOOL FOR THE CREATIVE AND PRAFORMING ARTS HAVE TRIED FOR SEVERAL WEEKESTO GET GRANT BUT HAVE RESEVED NO RESPONS FROM ANYONE.WE WOULD LIKE ANYONE WITH INFO ON GRANT MONEY TO E-MAIL ME WITH THE ADRESS SO WE COULD TRY AGAIN TO GET GRANT MONEY.
THANK YOU IN ADVANCE
SUBJECT: Need info
Date: 96-12-13 00:41:55 EDT
From: MamaQ
I'm not sure this is the right board, but I'm hoping someone can help me. My friend has a third -grader with a history of reading problems. Last year her daughter had to take summer school for reading, and this year is still having problems. Now it's affecting other areas of her school work. She ranked in the bottom 20 in her school after the standardized test. My question is this: If my friend requests in writing that the school district test her daughter for learning disabilities, do they have to do it? and, if so, is there a regulated time frame in which this must occur? How much say does the school have about it, if any? What other options does she have? The girl's teacher thinks testing is in order, but the school admin. is taking a wait and see approach. My friend is not particularly comfortable with this. I have suggested that she call the county sp. ed. office to her to try to start the process, and she can always stop if her daughter makes miraculous improvement.
Post responses here or e-mail me direct. Thank you for your help.
SUBJECT: Re:Need info (MamaQ)
Date: 96-12-13 13:00:14 EDT
From: Wheels2082
Go for testing NOW! The reading problem won't go away by itself. If it were in first grade, there was a chance because reversals and some other difficulties sometimes go away with time and practice. This is not the case right now. The principal was wrong in his assessment. How could he tell without testing? Hard for a reading problem but have to ask the right questions. But it would be hard at third grade but not at my age.
Dawn
Special Education Advocate
Online Teacher
SUBJECT: Need advice Sp. ed./dyslexia
Date: 96-12-13 16:10:07 EDT
From: Kalg7
My son is 8 1/2 years old. He has an IQ of 120, but struggles in school. He has had all the tests for LD. Last month we were told that our son is dyslexic. He really struggles to read and spell. He has all the symptoms of dyslexia. My problem is that he is so bright that he is pulling his weight in the classroom. He is just above the 25% in his class, but his potential is so much higher. He memorizes everthing his teacher says and is learning. However, when he takes a test or does his paper work there are so many spelling errors ect. My heart aches when I watch him do his homework because he gets so frustrated. He does not qualify for special ed. because he is not below 25% in his class, I am worried that he won't be able to keep this effort up. I feel he needs help now. I am working with him at home but it upsets me that the special ed. dept at school won't be able to help him. Thanks for listening.
SUBJECT: Re:Need advice Sp. ed./dysle
Date: 96-12-13 18:55:08 EDT
From: R u Niz
His eligibility for special ed services should be based on a discrepancy between expectancy and achievement. In other words, if your son is bright and should be achieving above the 50th percentile, but he is achieving significantly below that level due to a learning disability, he should (could) still be eligible for services or specific modifications within the classroom.
Has your son been diagnosed through your local public school? If you received a diagnosis from a private tester, bring in those results and request a full case study evaluation.
Good luck.
SUBJECT: Re:Need advice Sp. ed./dysle
Date: 96-12-14 13:56:37 EDT
From: SusanS29
"His eligibility for special ed services should be based on a discrepancy between expectancy and achievement. "
R u, it depends on what state the child is in.
Where we live, they do look at the difference between expectancy and achievement. In addition to be labeled LD the child must show perceptual impairment that would logically explain the discrepancy.
But other states don't take potential into account. They compare the child's performance to the child's grade level. In those states, bright students with learning disabilities will be under-diagnosed.
SUBJECT: Re:Need info
Date: 96-12-14 19:31:10 EDT
From: ShelleyHL
If your friend would like to request an educational evaluation, he/she should put that request in writing to the director of special services for the school the child attends. The request should be specific regarding the concerns she notes. I can't think of any reason why a school district would not evaluate a child with a parent request (unless the child is really doing well in school and is progressing appropriately for a child in their grade). The last sentence of the letter should read "I am looking forward to hearing from you regarding this request for an evaluation so that we can schedule a referral meeting". Good Luck, and keep dated copies of everything.
ShelleyHL
SUBJECT: Re:Dyslexia? LD? ADD? Normal?
Date: 96-12-19 23:35:28 EDT
From: KandJWelsh
I may be out of line responding to your message, however, this is something I feel very strong about. I am a child development major at UC Davis and have studied ADD/ADHD in many of my classes. I have a hard time believing there is anything wrong with your son. He is only in Kindergarten and he is still very young. I work in a first grade classroom and the teacher has told me many times that first grade is the critical year where the kids start to learn to read and do math. This is the year things begin "to click." Also, I don't know about your other two children, but boys do learn to read later than girls. The fact that you can get him to focus when you read stories, or focus on a television program shows he has the ability to concentrate and does not have attention problems. He may just be uninterested in reading right now and will become more interested as he gets older. I would wait on getting him tested too, for two reasons. First of all, if you test him and label him, he will carry that label for the rest of his life. It will be his crutch and he will always use it as an excuse. Secondly, he is young and may grow out of this. My mom had to make the decision about getting my sister tested and she opted not to. THis was the best thing she could have ever done, because my sister was not labled or put in a special class, she learned different ways to compensate and how to learn in her own way. She is now a college graduate and a very succesful business woman. My advice to you would be to wait at least a year and see how he does in first grade before you worry yourself.
SUBJECT: Re:Dyslexia? LD? ADD? Normal
Date: 96-12-20 20:25:10 EDT
From: R u Niz
I must take issue with one element in the previous post. The ability of a child to focus on a TV program or a particular reading activity does not preclude the possibility of an attentional problem. Research has shown that an ADD child can maintain attendance on a task that he/she finds stimulating.
SUBJECT: Re:Dyslexia? LD? ADD? Normal
Date: 96-12-20 22:50:37 EDT
From: SusanS29
"I must take issue with one element in the previous post. The ability of a child to focus on a TV program or a particular reading activity does not preclude the possibility of an attentional problem. "
R u I think that was the poster's point.
In addition-when a child is "watching TV" all we really know is that his or her head is pointed in the direction of the TV. We can't peek inside their brain and see whether their attention is constantly leaving and returning. TV is designed to draw us back to it. In addition most of the time the content is simplistic enough that superficial attention is adequate.
SUBJECT: Re:Dyslexia? LD? ADD? Normal
Date: 96-12-21 00:26:54 EDT
From: ShelleyHL
Remember, also that watching television is not interactive in any way.
ShelleyHL
SUBJECT: Re:Desperate Mom
Date: 96-12-25 23:58:50 EDT
From: RockBLaila
One other part that I haven't seen mentioned. Is your son seeing anyone to help with his responses to his failures? The teachers have a responsibility to your son's education, but he needs help to have appropriate responses to the demands being made on him. Good luck!
SUBJECT: Trouble with letters - HELP!
Date: 96-12-28 04:45:36 EDT
From: Debby Mac
My kindergartener is a real engima. He can do math, even multiplication already, in his head - but still can't remember the letter name and sound of more than 5 letters. I held him out of school last year, but sent him this year at 6. He is getting by somewhat by singing the A-B-C song to himself very fast when they ask him to identify a letter by name. But, if I catch him off guard - he quickly reponds with "oh, that's the 14th letter of the alphabet". How strange!
I've spoken with the school staff, but they are too busy to look into anything that isn't a pressing problem right now. Well, I think it is! Even though he's real good natured and a entertaining child, I can see that it is starting to bother him that he isn't learning the way he wants to.
Is this some strange dyslexic type thing? It runs in the family history, as
well as ADD. Any suggestions, I'd love to get an email note. Thanks -
Debby
SUBJECT: Re:Trouble with letters - HELP
Date: 96-12-28 15:04:53 EDT
From: SusanS29
Debby it's time to find out what's going on with this little munchkin. Put in a request, in writing, to have the school evaluate him for learning styles.
SUBJECT: Re:Trouble with letters - HE
Date: 96-12-30 01:42:29 EDT
From: SEMPERLOST
Debby, go beyond learning styles. Get a psychoeducational and psychological from the district. Your son sounds like he has some extraordinary abilities!
SUBJECT: RE: Trouble with Letters
Date: 96-12-30 02:09:42 EDT
From: Debby Mac
Thanks for everyone's support! I have decided to take a more active role in this now. He is starting to recognize a few words (is & the) this week, but still only sporadically point the letters in his name (SEAN) - and we've been working on that for 12 months now.. But, he can copy down sentences with beautiful penmanship, no flopped letters or anything. Wierd, huh?
SUBJECT: Re:RE: Trouble with Letters
Date: 96-12-30 10:30:37 EDT
From: ShelleyHL
No it's not wierd at all. Some children have very good writing/drawing
skills. This is different from being able to sort out and recognize the
symbols we use for reading and writing. I agree with previous posts, ask, in
writing, for an evaluation. ShelleyHL
SUBJECT: Re:RE: Trouble with Letters
Date: 96-12-31 15:44:52 EDT
From: Debby Mac
Thanks to everyone for their help, support and advice! I have finally gotten the time (I run a home business AND am choir director at church) to peruse the web for info on various LDs. Some very interesting info out there!
I am going to start on that letter to the school right now, to have ready when they go back to school on Thursday. After my last battle with the county (2 years to get older son placed in gifted program - since his ADD made test scores "iffy"), I'm ready to be persistant. We leave for another county the end of January, so it'd be great if I could have them done before then.
I'll keep you posted - thanks for the help. Have a happy New Year!
Debby
SUBJECT: radio show: please call
Date: 97-01-01 14:07:45 EDT
From: BLevine794
please contact me if you need advice regading any aspect of your child's iep
or you need any assistance identifying learning disabilities. i do a talk
show regarding learning disabilities and would love to hear from you. e-mail
me: thank you: dr. levine
SUBJECT: Re:radio show: please call
Date: 97-01-05 07:42:52 EDT
From: DKelly5873
This sounds interesting. How far can the talk show be heard? What time? What number do you call?
SUBJECT: Re: Repeat K or Spec. Ed
Date: 97-01-07 23:08:58 EDT
From: MLayport
I have a 5 year old born at 34 weeks gestation due date was 9/12/91 but he was born 7/22/91, he was not ready in my opinion for Kindergarten, he also has ADHD. If he were born on his due date he would not even be in kindergarten this year. Socially & physically he is about a year behind for his grade level. When he was in regular K, before spec ed he told me he was in a class with BIG kids.I feel if He were born term instead of early he would have had one more year to mature and be better equiped to handle kindergarten. Does anyone else feel this way?
Maria
SUBJECT: Re: Repeat K or Spec. Ed
Date: 97-01-08 00:54:19 EDT
From: Wheels2082
Maria,
It's better to wait a year if he isn't ready. Not all kids are ready for kindergarten at the same time. Search out a Gym Jam class at the local Y. He'll still learn and put his energy into action. My brother is gifted but was born after the cut off for kindergarten.
By the way, if he isn't ready for kindergarten now, he won't be ready for first grade next year at age six. Better wait until he is ready.
Dawn
Online teacher
Special Education Advocate
SUBJECT: Re: Repeat K or Spec. Ed
Date: 97-01-08 18:58:56 EDT
From: R u Niz
Good advice from Dawn. My son was born on Halloween and was reading before he entered Kindergarten. He had a great year. Everything fell apart for him in later years. Part of the problem related to maturity. I really think the extra year at home would have made a big difference. My next son was born i year later on Nov. 9th. Same story-an extra year at home would have given him more maturity. Now the cut-off here is Sept. 1. My kids aren't Sp-Ed (although the older one should have had gifted services) so I would imagine that if your son is ADHD the problems are magnified.
SUBJECT: Re: Repeat K or
Spec. Ed
Date: 97-01-08 20:04:49 EDT
From: DebbieFr
I agree with the previous advice giving to you. My son was due before the cut-off date, but born late. I am glad that he has had the extra maturity time.
SUBJECT: Re: Repeat K or Spec. Ed
Date: 97-01-08 21:21:02 EDT
From: MLayport
Dawn,
He is already in kindergarten, but not doing good learning even the alphabet, I know he won't be ready for kindergartin so I am going to ask school closer to end of year to let him repeat kindergartin again, so he can have an edge on First grade when he is ready. Any advice if they don't want to hold him back? Can I demand it?
SUBJECT: Re: Repeat K or Spec. Ed
Date: 97-01-08 21:45:06 EDT
From: ShelleyHL
My son too was born at 34 weeks gestation. He is now a healthy, somewhat ADHD, gifted child (honest, I'm not just a bragging mom). He was born in November and the best thing we did was give him another year in nursery school. He was physically very small and did not have the attention or maturity to handle kindergarten when he could have started at 4-10. My opinion is that there is no rush here. School is going to be 13 years at least. Fortunately, my child has no special education needs. But if he did, at least I would not have been left wondering if he was just too young...
ShelleyHL
P.S. It's no fun having a premature baby and wondering if or when there might be problems. Our doctors told us to use corrected age for most decisions in the preschool years.
SUBJECT: Re: Repeat K or Spec. Ed
Date: 97-01-09 00:53:29 EDT
From: Wheels2082
Marie,
Yes, you can demand holding back. It's well within your rights. If they push for advacement, all the system is trying to do is pass him through the system. Wouldn't advise it for any child if they aren't ready disabled or not.
Dawn
Online teacher
Special Education Advocate
SUBJECT: Medical info release?
Date: 97-01-09 13:15:27 EDT
From: Aug1955
Is it necessary to give permission to a school district to get medical records in order to get help for a 504 or special ed plan?
SUBJECT: Re:Medical
info release?
Date: 97-01-09 13:26:36 EDT
From: SusanS29
Aug they are entitled to ask for solid evidence of the disability-in fact they'd be remiss not to. They have that obligation to the taxpayers.
In addition they really should have all available information if they're going to do a good job with this student.
SUBJECT: Re:Medical info release?
Date: 97-01-10 10:06:11 EDT
From: Aug1955
Susan, I understand the need for proof, but how much are they entitled to? I really have nothing to hide, but should my son's entire medical history be available to the school district? There could be alot of private info that doesn't pertain to his need for special ed. My son is 8. He has Tourettes.
What about his rights to privacy? Is there a way to give them only what they need to know?
Thanks,
Donna
SUBJECT: Re:Medical info release?
Date: 97-01-10 11:48:46 EDT
From: SusanS29
"What about his rights to privacy? Is there a way to give them only what they need to know?"
You could ask whoever treated him before (psychologist, etc.) to write a summary letter.
You have the right to go through his cumulative folder from the old school and have objectionable material removed. (You also have the right to examine whatever records are kept at the new school also.)
SUBJECT: Re: Repeat K or
Spec. Ed
Date: 97-01-12 11:16:09 EDT
From: Ratatat
<<I have a 5 year old born at 34 weeks gestation due date was 9/12/91 but he was born 7/22/91, he was not ready in my opinion for Kindergarten, he also has ADHD. >.
You have some pretty special conditions here which would appropriately support a delay in beginning kindergarten.
In my state the "cut off date" is December 1st, not September 1st.
Generally speaking, because normal development of 5 years olds varies wildly, I think it is important to start school with the same aged peers. As the differences even out and the children begin to fall more in line with each other, the held back child suddenly starts to "be different" from his peers - and he is... he's older, and developmentally more mature. It can make it hard for these kids.
SUBJECT: Re: Repeat K or Spec. Ed
Date: 97-01-12 11:20:12 EDT
From: Ratatat
>>He is already in kindergarten, but not doing good learning even the
alphabet, I know he won't be ready for kindergartin so I am going to ask
school closer to end of year to let him repeat kindergartin again, so he can
have an edge on First grade when he is ready. Any advice if they don't want
to hold him back? Can I demand it?>>
You can request that your son repeat kindergarten - but dont do it to "give him an edge." Do it because that is what he needs. You have a good reason, the age and developmental maturation of your child, to request that he do Kindergarten a second time.
Question. So that your son feel like he his making some sort of progress, is there a way to make a second year of kindergarten different? At our school they have 1/2 day kindergarten and full day kindergarten. The full day basically has some 'light' activities, snack and nap added in as a service to working parents. But, something like this change, from half to full days, would help your son feel like the efforts his putting forth now are worth it.
Repeating a grade, even at this age and if your are not careful about how you manage it, can sent the message to a child that no matter how much effort is put forth he is a failure.
SUBJECT: Re:Medical info release?
Date: 97-01-12 11:24:01 EDT
From: Ratatat
<<Is it necessary to give permission to a school district to get medical
records in order to get help for a 504 or special ed plan? >>
The school is required to have your consent and to inform you as to what they need to consent of release of records for. You have to give consent to release records, and you have to give consent to them if they need to perform any evaluations. You can request that they specifically list which documents they request be released.
It's often a good idea to make an appointment to sit down and review your child's whole set of files before giving consent - that would include the Cumulative File, a "confidential" file, and possibly a compliance file. Ask to see all files that contain information that is hold information that is personally identifiable to your child - and ask the location of where each of the files is kept.
SUBJECT: Re: Repeat K or Spec. Ed
Date: 97-01-12 14:25:05 EDT
From: SusanS29
"You have some pretty special conditions here which would appropriately support a delay in beginning kindergarten.
In my state the "cut off date" is December 1st, not September 1st."
Where I am it's June 30!
SUBJECT: testing
Date: 97-01-12 20:09:11 EDT
From: FOURCBOYS
I have an 8 yr. old who is special ed. material. Problem: To talk to this child, you would swear that you were talking to an average or above student. Vocabulay and comprehension are great. To test this child, is to see him fail...miserably. An informal quiz on Social Studies by his regular classroom teacher (as they rode on a bus to field trip)revealed that he absorbed and understood 90% of subject matter. Testing...failure. Is there some way other than standard testing methods, because we've tried them all, to get an acurate IQ? The kid is too bright to have an IQ of 50-60.
Socially, he's outgooing and has many friends, but due to low test scores, school is trying to shove him into self-contained classroom. I believe he can continue to succeed with resource help. He currently gets 35 min. of math and same of language arts.
Is there some glich between visual learning and spitting out answers that we can address. Vision has been checked by reputable opthalmologist.
Help. Respond here or to fourcboys@aol.com
SUBJECT: Re:testing
Date: 97-01-13 02:31:10 EDT
From: SusanS29
FOURC, when a child "tests" low on an IQ test but functions like a non-retarded child, the child is not retarded. It is supposed to be assumed that the flaw is in the test.
If a child functions well on non-academic tests (socially appropriate, can do developmentally appropriate-or close to developmentally appropriate self-care, etc.) -- the child simply isn't retarded, period.
It's not common, but it does happen-which is why that rule is in place.
There are standardized checklists for establishing a child's developmental function, and that might be what you need, not another IQ test.
Then, since the child tests best orally-test him orally. :) That one is easy.
SUBJECT: Re:testing
Date: 97-01-13 15:27:54 EDT
From: Wheels2082
IQ tests tend to cover many things and probably the things that he had problems with brought down the score. I agree with Susan that the IQ shouldn't be retaken but an evaluation based on the characteristics of Mental Retardation. I'm very sure he won't fail that one and the placement can be over ruled for the self-contained.
Dawn Saur
Online teacher
Special Education ADVOCATE
SUBJECT: Re: Repeat K or Spec. Ed
Date: 97-01-14 16:11:50 EDT
From: MLayport
<<Generally speaking, because normal development of 5 years olds varies
wildly, I think it is important to start school with the same aged peers. As
the differences even out and the children begin to fall more in line with
each other, the held back child suddenly starts to "be different" from his
peers - and he is... he's older, and developmentally more mature. It can
make it hard for these kids.>>
Do you think a child with ADHD will always be a little behind in maturity. My son is in a full time speach & language spec ed class. He is now in Kindergartin, I know he is not going to be ready for 1st grade, he does not even know is letters, or count good past 10. I am concerned that if they don't keep him in special ed (I have no reason to think they won't) he will not do good at all in first grade, so I would want him to repeat kindergartin again unless he is going to still be in spec ed.
SUBJECT: Re: Repeat K or Spec.
Ed
Date: 97-01-14 16:14:49 EDT
From: MLayport
<< So that your son feel like he his making some sort of progress, is there a
way to make a second year of kindergarten different? >>
He is now in a special ed speach and lanquage full time K-program. If he repeats it I would think he might be ready to mainstream with the reg Kindergartin class, which is much larger he now has 11 kids and reg K has about 20-25.
SUBJECT: Re: Repeat K or Spec. Ed
Date: 97-01-14 18:18:10 EDT
From: SusanS29
"Do you think a child with ADHD will always be a little behind in maturity. "
Always. But repeating kindergarten isn't as troubling down the line as
repeating in later grades. In addition, language can be remediated.
So-another year really does buy time for progress. That won't happen with LD or ADD, but it happens with language skills all the time.
SUBJECT: Re:
Repeat K or Spec. Ed
Date: 97-01-23 18:45:15 EDT
From: AQRYUS
The disadvantage of repeating kindergarten is that it may be a half day program, where he may benefit from a full day program. Some districts have "readiness" programs or other programs for children who are developmentally young. Check and see if yours does.
SUBJECT: Re: Repeat K or Spec. Ed
Date: 97-01-23 18:57:26 EDT
From: AQRYUS
I have seen children identified as ADHD or ld make improvements with an extra year before grade one. The developmental level affects them just as much as it does a "regular" kid. Kids are ready to learn at different times, and if we can give them that time to grow, and experience success, then we have helped by holding them back from first grade. They still may have learning problems, but may be more ready to deal with them.
SUBJECT: spec. ed qual..help!
Date: 97-01-24 21:14:32 EDT
From: Bennudriti
I am a grad student in Va and need help with one of my classes. It is asking for us to find qualification for the students to be classified as LD/MR. I need to know tests that are given, etc. It does not matter where the information is from, but please email me back if you can help. Thank you.
SUBJECT: Re:Need advice Sp. ed./dysle
Date: 97-02-02 00:55:23 EDT
From: KMDMAN
If you want to play hard ball, ask for another evaluation by someone not in the district. You can also request what is called a "fair hearing", which is like a mediation. Districts hate them and are likely to give your child services just to avoid it.
SUBJECT: Re:testing
Date: 97-02-03 23:30:25 EDT
From: Stevepins
Fourcboys: have you looked into the multiple intelligence theory by Howard Gardner. This provides students an alternate way to be assessed. If you are interested, let's talk further.
SUBJECT: Re:Mislabeling of Black and
Date: 97-02-08 02:52:33 EDT
From: Morenuf2
With twenty years experience in the field, I seriously doubt that blacks and hispanics are being mislabled. If anything, I would say they are more carefully screened and more likely to get treatment than whites. Here the dual prejudices seem to work in the childs favor: those that feel that minorities are frequently dysfunction because....., want them evaluated at the first opportunity so they can displace them from the mainstream; while black or hispanics that feel that white institutions dont give enough and proper attention to their children's need are quick to demand that they be tested so that they can get maximum care. Most whites, on the other hand dont want their kids identified as having any problems what so often and frequently refuse specialized care offered because of their fear - socially - of lables. So I believe you stats will not show a discriminatory factor and mislabeling, but rather a propencity for this group to get better care for those that need it for at least the reasons stated above.
SUBJECT: Re:Perceptual-Motor Developm
Date: 97-02-08 02:54:28 EDT
From: Morenuf2
Check out the 504 status and application in your state. If you are unfamiliar with this bill, check with your school system - I am sure they can give you all the information you require.
SUBJECT: Bricktown, New Jersey
Date: 97-02-10 15:09:12 EDT
From: BRICKPOSSE
Looking for parents of children with ADD/ADHD, Aspergers Syndrom, PDD/NOS, Developmental Delay, Language Delays and Autism. Recent discoveries leads to the need for more information. Please send me e-mail directly if you are the parent of a child with special needs and live in Bricktown, New Jersey.
Brickposse@aol.com
Brick Posse (Brick Parents of Special Services and Education)
Bobbie Gallagher
SUBJECT: Re:Dyslexia? LD? ADD? Normal?
Date: 97-02-16 12:23:20 EDT
From: Cynann4636
I would suggest homeschooling him if you don't think he will make it in a classroom of 20 or more other students. Boys sometimes need just a little more time at home.
SUBJECT: HELP
Date: 97-02-23 22:41:12 EDT
From: MyniteKAP
I have a nine year old son who is ADD. He was tested for learning disabilities as well and the results were that he did not require additional help and could remain in a normal classroom setting. I just got a call from school that they would like to talk about special ed as an alternative. We are in a new school district this year. My son's classwork is not good, his self-esteem is low and he hardly has any friends. I don't know what to do. Any suggestions?
SUBJECT: Re:HELP
Date: 97-02-24 20:01:12 EDT
From: Mithue
Go to your child's ARD meeting with a list of written questions. Students are tested to rule in or rule out a learning disability. Most states will qualify a student for special education services based on a discrepancy between cognitive ability and educational performance on standardized educational tests. It sounds like your son did not not exhibit a significant discrepancy to qualify as a child with learning disabilities. If there is a written medical diagnosis of ADD from your physician, your son may be diagnosed as "other health impaired" provided his ADD is hindering his educational performance. Typically, that's seen in written language (difficulty with getting thoughts down on paper), organization, and possibly reading comprehension.
Special education services first must look at "least restrictive environment" which means can the service be provided in the classroom as opposed to a "pull-out program". If he can handle grade level material, an inclusion program should be tried first. As he feels himself becoming more successful, and he's better able to concentrate, his self-esteem will improve.
SUBJECT: HOW CAN I HELP MY SON?
Date: 97-02-24 23:49:33 EDT
From: Yogimax
MY SON IS 8 YRS. OLD IN THE 2ND GRADE AND IS HAVING PROBLEMS READING AND WITH HIS WRITTEN EXPRESSION. I HAVE HELPED HIM IN THE PAST AND HE MAY QUALIFY FOR SOME TUTORING;. I AM A TEACHER BUT NEED MORE HELP. HIS SCHOOL TEAM CAN'T PUT THERE FINGER ON WHAT THE PROBLEM IS. PLEASE E-MAIL TO YOGIMAX.
SUBJECT: Re:HELP
Date: 97-02-26 17:38:07 EDT
From: SusanS29
"If he can handle grade level material, an inclusion program should be tried first. "
Even if he can't handle grade level work, he may well be able to stay in the regular school. Where I taught last, we very rarely put LD students in special classes. It was almost unheard of. Instead, we worked with them within the regular school: sometimes in the regular classroom, sometimes in a resource room. We worked with the teachers to help them help the LD students.
And yes-these students did learn.
SUBJECT: Worried in Indiana
Date: 97-02-26 21:08:57 EDT
From: Mae57
My daughter is 9 and in 3rd grade. We have struggled since kindergarten and have evolved to the point where she is reading better, but still doesn't differentiate between the basic words, that for what, him for his, now for no, etc. The bigger words she is working through for the most part. We have had here tested about a year ago and of course found she was functioning below grade level. She cannot follow directions or panics and thinks she can't. Her IQ was 104 but she was functioning at 97 achievement level. We struggle everynight just keeping up her homework (mostly work she hasn't completed in class. The test results indicated no special services, but the school offered them because of the disparity between IQ and achievement. We did not take them up on it, but maybe should have and are requesting testing again. Also considering retention. I don't know if we are facing a learning disability not diagnosed, slow learner or low achiever. We would be happy with Cs and just an average child, but the Cs are even a struggle. Teacher says her C and D grades are even with help, though I suspect she is not getting what she needs and is probably a problem to deal with in her teachers opinion. It's getting to the point where we are at a loss. But probably my biggest concern is the impact on her self-esteen and the stress this struggle is putting on her and us as parents. We are moving anyway and will be in a different school system. If I thought retention would help I would do it in a minute, but my fear is that the struggle will continue plus she will be a year behind with nothing gained. She is somewhat less mature emotionally than the others in her class, but maturing physically and that is also a concern to us when we consider retention. Any advice?
SUBJECT: Re:Worried in
Indiana
Date: 97-02-26 21:44:14 EDT
From: SusanS29
"If I thought retention would help I would do it in a minute, but my fear is that the struggle will continue plus she will be a year behind with nothing gained. "
That is, unfortunately, the likely outcome-not next year but two or three years down the road.
You have to find out why she's struggling. If your leg hurts, you don't just put it in a cast-you find out if it's bruised, or you sprained your knee, or if you have a broken bone. First find the cause, and that will help lead to a solution.
SUBJECT: Re:Worried in Indiana
Date: 97-02-26 22:42:26 EDT
From: Mae57
Susan, where do I go from here? The only testing the school offered was the Stanford Binet, the Wechsler IA test which we have taken. Please help me get a plan. Her short term memory is lacking, she does anything she can to postpone getting down to business. We have her tutored 2X week for 1 hr. in reading fundamentals. She has progressed in reading, but naturally is still developing her abilities to comprehend fully and lacks any confidence in an ability to put thoughts into words on paper. Nearing the end of the 3rd grade it's compounding her problems more and more. Plus I fear little effort is put forth in the classroom to help her vs. challenging the higher achievers. With the tutor plus the nightly work we do at home I don't want her to snap; I know I'm about to sometimes.
SUBJECT: Re:Worried in Indiana
Date: 97-02-27 12:00:02 EDT
From: SusanS29
If you put your request in writing, they must evaluate her for possible special education support. It is possible that they can get as far as IQ testing and a look at achievement, and figure out that there's no way she'll qualify.
So your problem is that it depends on how your state defines 'learning disability.' If it's very difficult to qualify for LD support, it's possible they can look at her achievement and IQ and know that there's no way she would qualify. If your state doesn't factor intelligence into the decision (I know that sounds crazy but many states don't) -- then they wouldn't even have to do an IQ test to tell you she won't qualify.
Under these circumstances I think it's possible that they can legally refuse to do a full-scale evaluation for LD.
Talk to your school counselor, and find out how your state defines LD. If your state says that the child has to be two years below grade level, and that they don't take intelligence into account, there's not much you can do -- it's just about impossible for a third grader to be two years below grade level in anything.
The effects of such state standards are devastating, as children in such states won't get help until they're in terrible trouble, but the individual schools and school districts have no control over it. By federal law, each state gets to define standards for the classification of LD as they choose to. Odds are most of the teachers and other professionals at your school would prefer to intervene sooner.
SUBJECT: Re:Worried in Indiana
Date: 97-03-04 19:08:08 EDT
From: TLVAIL
Has your child had a full speech/language evaluation?
SUBJECT: Re:Worried in
Indiana
Date: 97-03-04 21:54:34 EDT
From: SusanS29
This child needs an evaluation. If you put your request in writing, the school must do it.
You need to find a way to get a handle on this. It sounds as if schoolwork is becoming the focus in your home. When school causes that much stress it can distort family life, and it holds great potential to distort the relationship you have with your daughter.
SUBJECT: Re:Worried in Indiana
Date: 97-03-10 18:38:29 EDT
From: AXChristy
I don't know if this will help any, but in the Indiana idenfication guidelines for LD placement, with regard to the discrepancy between expected and actual achievement level, says that for a severe discrepancy to exist, there has to be an 18 standard point difference, BUT there is a note of clarification which states:
"The severe discrepancy criterion should not be viewed as a rigid cut-off. If a student doesn't meet the criterion for a severe discrepancy, yet the case conference committee nontheless determines the student is learning disabled, a speicifc written justification must be provided for such a decision."
So it seems to me that if the school is cooperative and willing to provide services, your child could qualify even though her discrepancy is only about six standard points. E-mail if you could use any other Indiana-specific information.
SUBJECT: identification
Date: 97-03-10 18:50:27 EDT
From: AXChristy
I have a problem which has been unraveling all year. I have a student a regular ed. 6th grade class which I teach in a middle school. All year I have worried about him because he has had so much difficulty. I am his science teacher, so I took the word from Ms. Reading, Mr. Language Arts, and Mrs. Social Studies that he was just lazy and didn't try. I thought that perhaps since I am currently studying LD in graduate school, I was projecting too much so although I supported the idea of having him tested, when they dismissed it, I didn't push it.
I recently discovered that this boy received the lowest score in the school on the state standardized test taken this fall, and quite possibly the lowest in the state. He had 1%tile on several sections, and was shown to have an I.Q. of 65! Although this test is not the best, it is close enough to indicate a major problem. NOW to my question, what can be done to help this child if the parents won't even let him be tested with a full battery of assessments, let alone be placed in a classroom for mildly mentally handicapped? The boy cannot read and I want to help him!
SUBJECT: Re:identification
Date: 97-03-12 01:08:51 EDT
From: SusanS29
"Although this test is not the best, it is close enough to indicate a major problem. NOW to my question, what can be done to help this child if the parents won't even let him be tested with a full battery of assessments, let alone be placed in a classroom for mildly mentally handicapped? The boy cannot read and I want to help him!"
There really isn't anything you can do-unless the school is willing to call in child welfare officials. That may or may not be an accurate IQ for him, but given the circumstances, it seems to me that not finding out what's going on constitutes neglect.
SUBJECT: Re:identification
Date: 97-03-12 10:22:56 EDT
From: Ratatat
<<NOW to my question, what can be done to help this child if the parents
won't even let him be tested with a full battery of assessments, let alone be
placed in a classroom for mildly mentally handicapped? >>
The school has the same rights to due process as a parent would in this case. Just as when a parent can be convinced that their child has a problem and needs to be assessed, school refuses, parents can go to due process.
In this situation, the school can also file for due process which would bring a hearing officer "to the table" to make the final decision about testing and placement. Since the school has an "affirmative obligation" to find each child that is suspected of having a disability, and to assess that child for services, the school is well within it's rights to press for the testing through due process.
SUBJECT: Auditory Processing
Date: 97-03-16 19:03:06 EDT
From: Hjtd
How is there a determination between a child who chooses not to listen to instructions and one who can't follow instructions. Our son will be evaluated shortly and we are very confused. Please e-mail. Thanks.
SUBJECT: Re:opp/defiant
disorder
Date: 97-03-17 03:12:58 EDT
From: MoonRae4u
We are raising my grandson, who is 5 1/2 and in kindergarten. We recently found out that he has conductive hearing loss, but now he has been labeled as "the most difficult" child in the class and some of the other children are not very nice to him. ( Although I must definately say that his teacher has gone above the call of duty in her working with him; she is excellent! ) Anyway, He has shown some very "violent" behavior since he started school and although we have talked about his behavior with him, and he says he knows it's wrong to hit other people (children and once the teacher's aid) he says that his "brain tells him to do these things". Right now we are working on getting his hearing problem fixed, but we are low income and my daughter is not helping in the raising of her child (she just recently left the state..I think he is very hurt and angry about this..BTW) and they (the CCS) say after the hearing they'll see if he has some emotional/mental disorders. I don't want to wait until he has lost his interest in school and learning all together (now he says he is sick or having pain in his ears so I will keep him home.) I don't know exactly what I am asking, I guess I just felt alone with my fears for my grandson's future and I am very glad I found this board.
Thanks for letting me "unload". Moon
SUBJECT: Re:opp/defiant disorder
Date: 97-03-17 10:14:19 EDT
From: Ratatat
<<I don't know exactly what I am asking, I guess I just felt alone with my
fears for my grandson's future and I am very glad I found this board. >>
You might ask the school if they have a behavior specialist who can come observe your son in the classroom and help the teacher and you develop a behavior modification/management plan for the remainder of the school year - with frequent check-ins to see what's working, what's not - and why.
In the meantime, see if you can get your hands on a copy of the video or book by Thomas Phelan, Ph.D. on child management called, 1-2-3- Magic. It's very, very good - lots of parents (schools too) have found this to be a very effective program that's not hard to use, as long as you follow it exactly. You can order it from the ADD WareHouse Catalog at 1-800-233-9273, or maybe your local public library has (or will get) a copy for you. If you can get it, I recommend the video.
SUBJECT: Re:opp/defiant disorder
Date: 97-03-17 21:13:53 EDT
From: TrixieG459
<<He has shown some very "violent" behavior since he started school and
although we have talked about his behavior with him, and he says he knows
it's wrong to hit other people (children and once the teacher's aid) >>
You just described my 5 1/2 yr old son who has ADHD & a speach/language delay at the beginning of kindergartin when he was in reg class with 25 students. His behavior was so bad, the ESE specialist had him evaluated immediatly and we discovered his speach/lanquage delay which qualified him for a special ed class. He is now in a class with 10 students with teacher & a para-professional, doing sooooo much better. The ESE specialist at the other school was afraid he would not adapt well, being he was violent (he would even kick teachers), but his home school ese specialist & I felt if he was in a smaller class & not feeling inferior to other, more advanced, more mature students he would do much better. Thank the lord, we were right. He still has some outbursts of aggression but not anywhere near how it used to be.
SUBJECT: Help!
Date: 97-03-20 17:58:54 EDT
From: NvyRcrtr1
MY three year old son has been labled learning disabled. Can some one please
e-mail me and tell me what I need to watch out for or give me info and
support. I am a single mom of two and this is all new to me. Thank you in
advance. Tina NvyRcrtr1
SUBJECT: Re:Help!
Date: 97-03-20 18:39:13 EDT
From: Wheels2082
Hi Tina,
Your son with the identification can receive early intervention. With the proper intervention, he will be ready for school.
Dawn Saur (Wheels2082)
Online teacher
Special Education ADVOCATE
SUBJECT: Re:Auditory Processing
Date: 97-03-21 23:31:54 EDT
From: SusanS29
"How is there a determination between a child who chooses not to listen to instructions and one who can't follow instructions. Our son will be evaluated shortly and we are very confused."
It's determined via the testing, which will pinpoint auditory difficulties.
That said, I observed a first grade student with severe auditory perceptual problems once. Any time the teacher gave verbal instructions with no visual cues, the child physically turned 90 degress in her desk and started playing with someghing.
She wasn't deliberately not listening; she couldn't listen and get anything out of it unless visual cues were included.
She did well with resource help and graduated from high school a couple of years ago. Her senior year she won a national photography contest for high school newspaper photographers. She learned to use her visual talents well.
:)
SUBJECT: Re:Dyslexia? LD? ADD? Normal
Date: 97-03-29 10:22:14 EDT
From: JJohn20636
HI!
I am an Educational Diagnostician and I do testing for learning disabilities and mental retardation. I have also been a special education teacher for several years prior to going into diagnostics. You as a parent have the right to request that your district do standardized testing if there appears to be an educational need for special education. It is a personal opinion of mine that children in Kindergarten should not be tested and placed in special education program unless the child is mentally retarded. I believe that all children can be successful in the regular classroom and that the teachers can and must modify for children to be succesful. I feel like it is too much of a stigma for a child to be placed in a special education classroom. The ideal situation is to have the special education teacher come into the classroom and offer assistance and possibly do some re-teaching techniques. Not all children develop at the same rate and have not been exposed to the same experiences. Give them a chance before a label is placed upon them.
SUBJECT: Re:Dyslexia? LD? ADD? Normal
Date: 97-03-29 17:41:12 EDT
From: Mithue
I agree that children in kindergarten are too young for a diagnosis of learning disability unless there are extenuating circumstances. However, as a speech and language patholodgist who serves a population of students age 2 to age 8, I disagree that it is a diservice for kindergarteners to be labeled. Preschoolers may already have labels of language impairment with language, memory, behavior differences in the area(s) of receptive lang., expressive lang., vocab., auditory processing. etc. Some of my students function with language skills of a 3 yr. old child and are in kindergarten, definitely not ready for phonological processing at the same level as their peers. Frequently, they need intensive langauge experience in a small group to reinforce new skills. It is nearly impossible for daily plug in speech and language services in a typical school with a speech caseload of 70 +. I reasure my parents that five years after the service has ended, the records are shredded. I like to feel that my students are not looked at as a "label". Teachers frequently feel more frustrated with students not identified and not succeeding in school. Some of my students will be later identified as learning disabled but not until 2nd grade or late first grade.
Sue
SUBJECT: Disability Label
Date: 97-03-31 19:10:47 EDT
From: TKelton
I have a 5yr.old son with a speech delay. He is in Early Childhood receiving speech services also. The spec.ed. team told all kinds of horrible things about his speech, but would not put it in writing. I took him to the college for an eval. She said he was typical speech problem. All he needed was to go to school and learn language from other students and services in sounds. His iep will be coming soon. I know in order for them to do an iep they will label him speech disability. He's not though just delayed. I am thinking of declining spec.ed and going for 504 for services? What will happen? Thanks.
SUBJECT: Re:Disability Label
Date: 97-03-31 20:21:44 EDT
From: Mithue
I haven't heard of any students needing speech services under a 504 Plan. Usually, although not always,(how's that for a definite answer!) students receive help due to a health concern such as a physical disability, or ADD which may only need modifications and accomodations in the classroom with the regular teacher. If your child needs speech, I would recommend speech therapy. I like to think that speech therapists are not ogres.
SUBJECT: Re:Disability Label
Date: 97-04-01 00:55:09 EDT
From: SusanS29
" I am thinking of declining spec.ed and going for 504 for services? What will happen? Thanks."
I don't think, in reality, that you can do that. there is no shame in having a speech disability, and tremendous benefit to your child to have the difficulty pinpointed with precision.
Give them a chance. Speech is so accessible for remediation. I think you'll see tremendous gains in the next two years or so.
